Mormon Apologists

Phantasman · Oct 22, 2012

Clearly said:
[FONT=&quot]I think phantasmans comment (post #100) regarding some individuals having better antennas than others is correct. However it may also be that we often simply have different antennas tuned differently than others due to our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Logics and Philosophers have long recognized that the vast majority of the hundreds of Christianities MUST be in error since only one (or a few) of their conflicting theories on specific doctrines CAN be correct. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the fact that Gods plan was to educate mankind in moral and social principles which would enable mankind to live in heaven, I do not think God requires all mankind in this life, to have perfectly correct doctrinal ideas on all issues, but rather to learn how to act towards others with differing sentiments in all situations. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since mankind are beings whose profound purpose is to learn to live in harmony and patience and unity in heaven; then learning patience and love and acting kindly towards those who are different than one self may be more important than to have known the correct greek translation of a trivial passage of sacred text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Often the difficulties Christians have is trying to get along when having differing backgrounds and contexts and differing abilities and other characteristics. Obviously the LDS believe in and use the bible and New Testament just as other christianities do. The various Christianities do no differ so much as to whether they USE biblical texts or not, but in their interpretation of scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phoebe again provides an example of the difficulty of using the scripture but being unable to find unity. Phoebe may (quite properly) use 2 tim 3:16 and give it her interpretation while a different Christian will apply their differing interpretation to it. The Historian will point out that the words she quotes are not IN any greek text, but instead are simply the KJV translators interpretation, and so the scholar can NEVER agree with EITHER of the first two Christians (or the hundreds) that quote the KJV of this text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps Phoebe and the other non-greek readers may doing the very best that they can in creating their best guess of what that scripture means, having no knowledge that the words in their translation are not even IN the New Testament, while the scholars will create their differing best guess and come to entirely different conclusions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, If Gods ultimate goal to teach individuals moral and social laws as to how to get along in such a situation of unavoidable disunity, then it may not matter if all three (or hundreds of) christian groups get the translation perfectly correct, but instead, the most important issue was how they learn to deal with their differences. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If they react with hatred and self satisfied pride and with taunting superiority at the others stupidity compared to their own supposed correctness, then it may not be the most important thing that their specific interpretation is the best. In this case, their pride and meanness disqualify and leave them unprepared to live in a social heaven, in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Conversely, If they react with patience and understanding and kindness to the differences, then even IF they interpret this specific scripture incorrectly, the important thing was that they became a peacemaker, fully of patience and selfless empathy, despite not having a perfect understanding the original greek. In this case, their moral patience and charity and love and humility still qualifies and prepares them to live in a social heaven in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As long as the many, many, many christianities are unable to learn to love one another as I have loved you, then the somewhat petty arguments about who is personally superior in their knowledge and logic, and whose Christianity can beat up other christianities will never help us accomplish the goal God sent us to mortality to accomplish. The agreement with and addition of yet another Christian witness that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior of mankind and that he is the redeemer to whom mankind must look too often takes second seat to petty arguments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]clearly
eieivitzlk
[/FONT]

And you see the truth above all others as far as I am concerned, brother.

The doctrine of men is what is false, not of any individual church. The church(es) of today have become the Pharisee's of the times of Jesus. They have the Book of Knowledge and know their truths according to God and no one can tell them different. If Jesus himself walked into the church and challenged their doctrine here is how it would go:

1. He would swiftly be asked to leave because they would not know him.
2. They think he would not challenge it because they are right.

It is this reason I follow no doctrine. This forum is proof that doctrines are wrong, because they promote dysfunction and intimidation towards those who seek Gods love. The theme is to love God first and above all and our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. There are good people in all churches that I am proud to call brothers and sisters in the Lord. There are many who need prayer.

It's not as much about the church. If I don't believe Revelations, does it matter? If I don't believe the Torah, does it matter? All eyes on Christ matters. All love for others matters. Whether you gain love from following Paul, Barnabas, John, Joseph Smith, Nephi, Muhammad, Philip or whoever, if you follow Jesus commandment of love, you are doing what the Father asks of you, and the rest will be added unto you.

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
I see that I chose a word that proved to be inaccurate.

Ah. OK.

bbbbbbb said:
I did not intend introspection to mean merely self-meditation. What I meant was a process in which one does not depend to any reasonable extent upon external authority such as scripture and/or apologetics but, rather upon one's own perception and understanding as to God's personal revelation. All too often, sadly, the result is that people reach erroneous conclusions.

I see, but you are relying on strawman assertions and assumptions when laying this upon our (LDS) shoulders.

For example, your statement assumes that by encouraging people to seek wisdom from God we are doing so exclusive of "external authority" such as scripture and/or apologetics. First off, we teach from the scriptures. We encourage people to read and study them. And as far as apologetics is concerned, there is plenty of apologetics in our missionary discussions, particularly when we're teaching other Christians. So where is this disregard for education that you speak of?

bbbbbbb said:
I once knew a man who followed this course of divine revelation. Unfortunately, he suffered from schizophrenia and refused to take his medication. The result was audible voices (to him) which instructed him to commit suicide.

"This course" you laid out above, and which acts as the basis for this anecdote, is not consistent with our prescribed means of teaching people, and so neither does it, or this man's schizophrenia, have anything to do with the Restored Gospel or the preaching methods employed by the LDS church, in my view.

bbbbbbb said:
The role of apologetics is significant in convincing others of the veracity of one's belief.

I understand, but I do not believe that apologetics equals "objective truth," to use your term. Apologetics is subjective by its very nature. Yes, it can be the means through which persons find their way to truth. But that is the extent to which I believe it applies to the subject. God is the author of truth and He has ordained that it is through the Holy Ghost that it is revealed to men. This is not my idea. These are the Savior's teachings, and they are right there in the Bible. (Matt. 16:13-17; John 14:26)

So I don't feel that it is a dangerous thing for God's children to go "boldly to the throne of grace" in their various times of need. (Hebrews 4:16) And when a person is sorting out which voice, among all the voices clamoring "lo here" and "lo there," speaks the truth, I believe he is in need of aid from a higher authority than apologetics, or even scripture and apologetics. He needs to speak to the Author of truth, and that Author invites him to do just that. (Matt. 7:7-8; James 1:5-6) Not exclusive of scriptures, etc., but in conjunction with them (at a minimum).

bbbbbbb said:
I remember the time when Hillary Clinton, as First Lady, spoke of a "vast right-wing conspiracy". When questioned about her sources for it, she retreated into silence because, although he knew of its existence, she had no means of verifying it. It still remains questionable as to whether or not such a conspiracy exists. I suppose if Mr. Romney wins this election that might provide fodder for this belief.

LOL, maybe so. Heaven knows that everyone wants everyone else to believe that their own conspiracies don't exist, so nothing would surprise me in this world.

Rescued One · Oct 22, 2012

Ran77 said:
Interesting. Please explain the following verses in light of the whole second seat thing you describe here.

Matt. 11: 27

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matt. 24: 36

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matt. 26: 53

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Matt. 26: 42

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Luke 22: 29

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luke 2: 49

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Fathers business?

Luke 24: 49

49 ¶And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

John 6: 57

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 16: 28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 14: 31

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 5: 36

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

There's more, but I am out of time and this should be enough.

What is your question? I can't figure it out.

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

Phoebe Ann said:
What is your question? I can't figure it out.

Please explain the verses in light of the whole "second seat" thing you described in your post.

Mormon Apologists

Phantasman

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TasteForTruth

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Ran77

Senior Contributor

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