Mormon Apologists

Albion · Oct 22, 2012

Ran77 said:
It's great that you can speak for non-LDS, as opposed to just yourself. I find it difficult to believe that you represent an authortative expert of which messages are supplied by the Holy Spirit and which are not. I would never presume so much.

Now. Wait a minute. There are certain things we can say that are not presumptions. The Holy Spirit will not contradict God's own word given in Scripture, for instance, so the idea of millions of people each getting direct orders that circumvent and/or conflict with Scripture is surely open to doubt, to say the least.

Which side is fooling themselves? Does it matter?

Why wouldn't it?

Every person has a right to pursue the religious beliefs that they choose to follow.

Of course. No one has denied that principle and no one is likely to do so. It's just not germaine to the discussion.

Rescued One · Oct 22, 2012

Ran77 said:
It's great that you can speak for non-LDS, as opposed to just yourself. I find it difficult to believe that you represent an authortative expert of which messages are supplied by the Holy Spirit and which are not. I would never presume so much.

What I see is that people claim they have answers from the Holy Spirit. And I certainly don't doubt that possibility. But I look at the facts, which are that either Joseph Smith was a true prophet, or he wasn't. Actual answers from the Holy Spirit will indicate only the one that is true.

People fool themselves all the time. And one side of this issue is obviously not receiving actual answers from the Holy Ghost. Perhaps they have already made up their minds and there is no answer on the part of the Spirit.

I'm glad you shared this LDS perspective with members of CF!

Ran77 said:
This is what I have to say to my fellow Christians that receive a different answer than I have: God bless you for taking the matter to the Lord and may He bless you for your diligence in worship.

Fellow Christians?

Contrary to what many think, just believing in God and being virtuous and pure are not sufficient to qualify a person for entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
...
People who accept and live doctrines of men do not know the living God.
Bernard P. Brockbank, “Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, January 1973, p. 44

"'Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them'"
(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)

Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111
(Bold mine)

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

Ran77 said:
No. It just doesn't line up with what you've chosen to believe. And the bit about LDS expecting anyone to choose the prophets over scripture is absolutely false.

This is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13: 24-29

The Book of Mormon also says:

"Wherefore, because you have a Bible you need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need you suppose that I have not caused more to be written. 2 Nephi 29:10 (see also verses 3-6 )

(41-4) Romans 10:14, 15. Acceptance of Christ Requires Acceptance of His Prophets
“Now it is not possible, in my judgment, for people in the world to accept Christ and come to salvation, unless at one and the same time they accept the prophets whom Christ has sent and receive the administration of holy ordinances under their hands.
“Christ and his prophets are one. We could not believe in Christ if there were not prophets to declare Christ and his saving truths unto us. The Apostle Paul reasoned on this subject, and he said: ‘. . . how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
“‘And how shall they preach, except they be sent?’ (Romans 10:14–15.)
“Except for Christ, there would be no salvation. Except for the prophets of God, sent in the various ages of the earth’s history, the testimony of Christ would not be borne, the message of salvation would not be taught, and there would be no legal administrators who could perform the ordinances of salvation for men, that is, perform them so they will be binding on earth and sealed eternally in the heavens.
“So it is that the Lord has sent prophets. No one would suppose that he could believe in Christ and reject Peter, James, and John. The Lord and his prophets go hand in hand. Christ said, ‘I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman’; then he said to his Apostles, ‘Ye are the branches.’ (John 15:1, 5.) The branches and the vine are connected. He taught also that if the branches were torn away from him, they would wither and die and be cast into the fire. If people in the world would pick the fruit of eternal life off the branches, they have to accept the prophets, for the branches are the prophets.” (Bruce R. McConkie in CR, Oct. 1951, p. 147.)

New Testament section 8

Brigham Young declared, "...and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist."
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312

Let's look at that in context:
The time was when the test of a Christian was his confession of Christ. In the first Epistle of John it is written, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God, and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not of God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is in the world." This is no test to this generation, for all men of the Christian world confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This generation, however, is not left without a test. I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist.
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312

Ran77 said:
I don't mind that you have a vendetta against the LDS, but at least attack our actual beliefs instead of the changed views that you insist on offering.

:o

Do you have a vendetta against me? I have no vendetta against LDS. I am pro-truth.

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

Phoebe Ann said:
I'm glad you shared this LDS perspective with members of CF!

Wrong! I have shared my perspective. That really shouldn't be difficult to understand.

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

Albion said:
Now. Wait a minute. There are certain things we can say that are not presumptions. The Holy Spirit will not contradict God's own word given in Scripture, for instance, so the idea of millions of people each getting direct orders that circumvent and/or conflict with Scripture is surely open to doubt, to say the least.

Okay, I'm waiting.

In my post I already stated (in my own words) that the Holy Spirit will not contradict God or the messages He has given us in scripture. As such, I am not understanding your objection.

Albion said:
Why wouldn't it?

Because it is their business what they choose to believe. They have the right to follow religion in the manner they think best for them.

Albion said:
Of course. No one has denied that principle and no one is likely to do so. It's just not germaine to the discussion.

It is germain to the post I commented on.

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
Simply because I do not see value in introspection as a means of ascertaining objection truth. By introspection I include such such things as the Quaker understanding of finding the Holy Spirit as well as other subjective means of determination. What is truth for you may or may not be objective truth. All actual truth is objective and can be objectively verified.

Since when is praying "introspection"? Are you suggesting that when we seek confirmation of truth from a source external to ourselvesGodthat we are, in fact, speaking and listening to ourselves?

I'd like to get this cleared up before I comment further.

Clearly · Oct 22, 2012

[FONT=&quot]I think phantasmans comment (post #100) regarding some individuals having “better antennas” than others is correct. However it may also be that we often simply have “different antennas” tuned differently than others due to our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Logics and Philosophers have long recognized that the vast majority of the hundreds of Christianities MUST be in error since only one (or a few) of their conflicting theories on specific doctrines CAN be correct. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the fact that God’s plan was to educate mankind in moral and social principles which would enable mankind to live in heaven, I do not think God requires all mankind in this life, to have perfectly correct doctrinal ideas on all issues, but rather to learn how to act towards others with differing sentiments in all situations. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since mankind are beings whose profound purpose is to learn to live in harmony and patience and unity in heaven; then learning patience and love and acting kindly towards those who are different than one self may be more important than to know the correct greek translation of a trivial passage of sacred text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Often the difficulties Christians have is trying to get along when having differing backgrounds and contexts and differing abilities and other characteristics. Obviously the LDS believe in and use the bible and New Testament just as other christianities do. The various Christianities do not differ so much as to whether they USE biblical texts or not, but in their interpretation of the texts.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phoebe again provides an example of the difficulty of using a scripture but being unable to find unity. Phoebe may (quite properly) use 2 tim 3:16 and give it her interpretation while a different Christian will apply their differing interpretation to it. The Historian will point out that the words she quotes are not IN any greek New Testament text, but instead are simply the KJV translators interpretation, and so the scholar can NEVER agree with EITHER of the first two Christians (or the hundreds) that quote the KJV of this text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps Phoebe and the other non-greek readers may doing the very best that they can in creating their best guess of what that scripture means, (having no knowledge that some of the words in their translation are not even IN the New Testament), while the scholars will create their differing best guess and come to entirely different conclusions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, If Gods ultimate goal to teach individuals moral and social laws as to how to get along in such a situation of unavoidable disunity, then it may not matter if all three (or hundreds of) christian groups get the translation perfectly correct, but instead, the most important issue was how they learn to deal with their differences. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If they react with hatred and self satisfied pride and with taunting superiority at the others “stupidity” compared to their own supposed “correctness”, then it may not be the most important thing that their specific interpretation is the best. In this case, their pride and meanness disqualify and leave them unprepared to live in a social heaven, in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Conversely, If they react with patience and understanding and kindness to the differences, then even IF they interpret this specific scripture incorrectly, the important thing was that they became a peacemaker, fully of patience and selfless empathy, despite not having a perfect understanding the original greek. In this case, their moral patience and charity and love and humility still qualifies and prepares them to live in a social heaven in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As long as the many, many, many christianities are unable to learn to “love one another as I have loved you”, then the somewhat petty arguments about who is personally superior in their knowledge and logic, and whose Christianity can beat up other christianities will never help us accomplish the goal God sent us to mortality to accomplish. The agreement with and addition of yet another Christian witness that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior of mankind and that he is the redeemer to whom mankind must look too often takes second seat to petty arguments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]clearly
eieivitzlk
[/FONT]

Rescued One · Oct 22, 2012

Clearly said:
I think phantasmans comment (post #100) regarding some individuals having “better antennas” than others is correct. However it may also be that we often simply have “different antennas” tuned differently than others due to our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity.

Do we choose our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity?

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:26

If we were in charge of our antennas, why did God choose for us?

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

Phoebe Ann said:
Non-LDS who trust God and appeal to directly to Him for wisdom, frequently are told by the Holy Spirit that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

This does not bear on the fact that Joseph Smith encouraged people to seek knowledge directly from God.

Phoebe Ann said:
Obviously, Mormonism doesn't line up with the Bible and LDS expect us to choose their prophets' teachings over scripture.

Well, invoking the very principle you just stated above, it is not obvious to us LDS that Mormonism doesn't line up with the Bible. As that is the case, we LDS do not expect you, or anyone else, to choose our prophet's teachings over scripture. Strawman assertions, both of them.

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

Phantasman said:
Waste of time, my friend.

What is a waste of time?

inthec · Oct 22, 2012

TasteForTruth said:
Since when is praying "introspection"? Are you suggesting that when we seek confirmation of truth from a source external to ourselvesGodthat we are, in fact, speaking and listening to ourselves?

I'd like to get this cleared up before I comment further.

I think if a person tries to ignore all the warning signs, and prays whether something is true or not, when the whole time they turn a blind eye to what has already been shown them, then the answer they get will either be self-derived, or worse, from an evil force.

This can be with anything, though, not just religion.

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

inthec said:
I think if a person tries to ignore all the warning signs, and prays whether something is true or not, when the whole time they turn a blind eye to what has already been shown them, then the answer they get will either be self-derived, or worse, from an evil force.

What warning signs? What blind eye? Why, when this idea is posed, is it assumed that people are being asked to pray, and do pray, against the dictates of their conscience? Why is it claimed, contrary to our actual methods of preaching the Gospel, that people are encouraged to pray from an "ill-informed" position? These are strawman assertions and we are neither responsible for them nor obligated to "conjure up" answers to them to satisfy those who do not frame their questions on the basis of reality!

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

Clearly said:
[FONT=&quot]I think phantasmans comment (post #100) regarding some individuals having better antennas than others is correct. However it may also be that we often simply have different antennas tuned differently than others due to our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Logics and Philosophers have long recognized that the vast majority of the hundreds of Christianities MUST be in error since only one (or a few) of their conflicting theories on specific doctrines CAN be correct. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the fact that Gods plan was to educate mankind in moral and social principles which would enable mankind to live in heaven, I do not think God requires all mankind in this life, to have perfectly correct doctrinal ideas on all issues, but rather to learn how to act towards others with differing sentiments in all situations. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since mankind are beings whose profound purpose is to learn to live in harmony and patience and unity in heaven; then learning patience and love and acting kindly towards those who are different than one self may be more important than to have known the correct greek translation of a trivial passage of sacred text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Often the difficulties Christians have is trying to get along when having differing backgrounds and contexts and differing abilities and other characteristics. Obviously the LDS believe in and use the bible and New Testament just as other christianities do. The various Christianities do no differ so much as to whether they USE biblical texts or not, but in their interpretation of scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phoebe again provides an example of the difficulty of using the scripture but being unable to find unity. Phoebe may (quite properly) use 2 tim 3:16 and give it her interpretation while a different Christian will apply their differing interpretation to it. The Historian will point out that the words she quotes are not IN any greek text, but instead are simply the KJV translators interpretation, and so the scholar can NEVER agree with EITHER of the first two Christians (or the hundreds) that quote the KJV of this text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps Phoebe and the other non-greek readers may doing the very best that they can in creating their best guess of what that scripture means, having no knowledge that the words in their translation are not even IN the New Testament, while the scholars will create their differing best guess and come to entirely different conclusions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, If Gods ultimate goal to teach individuals moral and social laws as to how to get along in such a situation of unavoidable disunity, then it may not matter if all three (or hundreds of) christian groups get the translation perfectly correct, but instead, the most important issue was how they learn to deal with their differences. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If they react with hatred and self satisfied pride and with taunting superiority at the others stupidity compared to their own supposed correctness, then it may not be the most important thing that their specific interpretation is the best. In this case, their pride and meanness disqualify and leave them unprepared to live in a social heaven, in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Conversely, If they react with patience and understanding and kindness to the differences, then even IF they interpret this specific scripture incorrectly, the important thing was that they became a peacemaker, fully of patience and selfless empathy, despite not having a perfect understanding the original greek. In this case, their moral patience and charity and love and humility still qualifies and prepares them to live in a social heaven in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As long as the many, many, many christianities are unable to learn to love one another as I have loved you, then the somewhat petty arguments about who is personally superior in their knowledge and logic, and whose Christianity can beat up other christianities will never help us accomplish the goal God sent us to mortality to accomplish. The agreement with and addition of yet another Christian witness that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior of mankind and that he is the redeemer to whom mankind must look too often takes second seat to petty arguments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]clearly
eieivitzlk
[/FONT]

Good post.

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

inthec said:
I think if a person tries to ignore all the warning signs, and prays whether something is true or not, when the whole time they turn a blind eye to what has already been shown them, then the answer they get will either be self-derived, or worse, from an evil force.

This can be with anything, though, not just religion.

That sounds like a reasonable case for why some people get different answers from their prayers than others. The difficulty is in determining which groups are ignoring what they know and which are genuine in their seeking.

inthec · Oct 22, 2012

TasteForTruth said:
What warning signs? What blind eye? Why, when this idea is posed, is it assumed that people are being asked to pray, and do pray, against the dictates of their conscience? Why is it claimed, contrary to our actual methods of preaching the Gospel, that people are encouraged to pray from an "ill-informed" position? These are strawman assertions and we are neither responsible for them nor obligated to "conjure up" answers to them to satisfy those who do not frame their questions on the basis of reality!

I'm not here to put down your religion, so I'm not gonna throw a bunch of pre-determined questions/answers at you to try and make you look bad. I believe everyone has a right to live a peaceful life without being constantly dogged.

I will, however, answer your question in that its things like the Book of Abraham and the whole lack of artifacts issue.

Of course you could try to steer me towards some LDS "in house" experts, or other such material, but that would be like buying a used car you fell in love with at first sight.

For the person thats buying the car, he really wants an independent mechanics advice, not the car salesmans pitch. The mechanic says the car is a lemon, and wouldnt make it to the next town, but you really like the feeling you get when you look at the car because it has all the right curves and lines and a fresh coat of paint.

Praying whether the LDS Church or Book of Mormon is true and ignoring the rest of science would be like ignoring the auto mechanics warning and listening to the salesman and your feelings.

Rescued One · Oct 22, 2012

Clearly said:
As long as the many, many, many christianities are unable to learn to love one another as I have loved you, then the somewhat petty arguments about who is personally superior in their knowledge and logic, and whose Christianity can beat up other christianities will never help us accomplish the goal God sent us to mortality to accomplish. The agreement with and addition of yet another Christian witness that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior of mankind and that he is the redeemer to whom mankind must look too often takes second seat to petty arguments.
clearly

There is only one God and one path to God. Jesus never takes second seat in the life of a Christian.

It is Mormonism that moves Christ to a lesser position than the Father.

The Father presides over the Godhead.
■ Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. . . .
Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are one God . . . , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fulness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities. Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 319).
■ Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abrahams record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator (Smith, Teachings, 190).

Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual

Rescued One · Oct 22, 2012

Clearly said:
Conversely, If they react with patience and understanding and kindness to the differences, then even IF they interpret this specific scripture incorrectly, the important thing was that they became a peacemaker, fully of patience and selfless empathy, despite not having a perfect understanding the original greek. In this case, their moral patience and charity and love and humility still qualifies and prepares them to live in a social heaven in harmony with others.

Living in Heaven with God is predicated upon the new birth given by the Holy Spirit; this birth creates faith in Christ. (See John 3:3, Ephesians 2:8-9)

Love is a fruit of the Spirit. Only by being united to Christ are we able to truly love as God intended. Those who do not love haven't been born again. And love rejoices in truth. (1 Cor. 13:6)

Clearly · Oct 22, 2012

[FONT=&quot]Clearly said : (post # 106) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think phantasmans comment (post #100) regarding some individuals having “better antennas” than others is correct. However it may also be that we often simply have “different antennas” tuned differently than others due to our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Logics and Philosophers have long recognized that the vast majority of the hundreds of Christianities MUST be in error since only one (or a few) of their conflicting theories on specific doctrines CAN be correct. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the fact that God’s plan was to educate mankind in moral and social principles which would enable mankind to live in heaven, I do not think God requires all mankind in this life, to have perfectly correct doctrinal ideas on all issues, but rather to learn how to act towards others with differing sentiments in all situations. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since mankind are beings whose profound purpose is to learn to live in harmony and patience and unity in heaven; then learning patience and love and acting kindly towards those who are different than one self may be more important than to have known the correct greek translation of a trivial passage of sacred text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Often the difficulties Christians have is trying to get along when having differing backgrounds and contexts and differing abilities and other characteristics. Obviously the LDS believe in and use the bible and New Testament just as other christianities do. The various Christianities do no differ so much as to whether they USE biblical texts or not, but in their interpretation of scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phoebe again provides an example of the difficulty of using the scripture but being unable to find unity. Phoebe may (quite properly) use 2 tim 3:16 and give it her interpretation while a different Christian will apply their differing interpretation to it. The Historian will point out that the words she quotes are not IN any greek text, but instead are simply the KJV translators interpretation, and so the scholar can NEVER agree with EITHER of the first two Christians (or the hundreds) that quote the KJV of this text.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps Phoebe and the other non-greek readers may doing the very best that they can in creating their best guess of what that scripture means, having no knowledge that the words in their translation are not even IN the New Testament, while the scholars will create their differing best guess and come to entirely different conclusions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, If Gods ultimate goal to teach individuals moral and social laws as to how to get along in such a situation of unavoidable disunity, then it may not matter if all three (or hundreds of) christian groups get the translation perfectly correct, but instead, the most important issue was how they learn to deal with their differences. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If they react with hatred and self satisfied pride and with taunting superiority at the others “stupidity” compared to their own supposed “correctness”, then it may not be the most important thing that their specific interpretation is the best. In this case, their pride and meanness disqualify and leave them unprepared to live in a social heaven, in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Conversely, If they react with patience and understanding and kindness to the differences, then even IF they interpret this specific scripture incorrectly, the important thing was that they became a peacemaker, fully of patience and selfless empathy, despite not having a perfect understanding the original greek. In this case, their moral patience and charity and love and humility still qualifies and prepares them to live in a social heaven in harmony with others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As long as the many, many, many christianities are unable to learn to “love one another as I have loved you”, then the somewhat petty arguments about who is personally superior in their knowledge and logic, and whose Christianity can beat up other christianities will never help us accomplish the goal God sent us to mortality to accomplish. The agreement with and addition of yet another Christian witness that there is a God, and that Jesus is the savior of mankind and that he is the redeemer to whom mankind must look too often takes second seat to petty arguments.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]clearly
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Phoebe asks (post # 107) Do we choose our backgrounds, our social and intellectual characteristics; our personalities; our upbringing and our changing level of maturity? And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26 If we were in charge of our antennas, why did God choose for us?[/FONT]

Hi Phoebe. I do not think we ARE entirely “in charge of our antennas” in this life. I think that most of us are simply doing the best that we can. For example, though you, as a non-historian cannot know the quote you offered is incorrect and yet the greek-reading historian can, still, you both have equal opportunity to choose to have patience and love and show kindness and peace toward each other who may have entirely different interpretations of 2 tim 3:16 based on your varying life experiences.

Also, Most of us do not chose the period of history we are born into; nor our language, nor our level of intelligence, our education abilities, nor the religion we initially are taught by our parents (and the biases that come with our early upbringing).

The early Jews and Christian texts make clear that God is a just God and judges based on our personal capabilities and charatveristics. Those who are mentally and morally incompetent are not judged as though they are mentally competent.

The early Christian apologists pointed out that Gods criteria of determining “ the bounds of [mans] habitation” before birth was not simply arbitrary nor unjust, but that some of the inequity we are born with was partly determined by choices and characteristics gained in a pre-mortal existence as spirits, before being born into bodies in this life. Thus we come to his life unequal in many ways.

This was the earlier ancient worldview as well. Thus, this was why the apostles asked : “[FONT=&quot]who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Their assumption was that his blindness at birth was a punishment a result of sinning in the pre-mortal existence (either he, or his parents).[/FONT]

It is clear that the ultimate Goal of God is to enable mankind to master moral and social laws which will enable them to live in heaven with one another in harmony and love and unity forever. Thus the ancient context of coming to earth was often described as a sort of tutoring. Speaking of these pre-mortal spirits, it was asked
“…[FONT=&quot]why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. In this wise, the Holy One, be blessed, possessed a son from the matron, that is, the supernal holy soul. He despatched it to a village, that is, to this world, to be raised in it, and initiated into the ways of the King’s palace. Informed that his son was now come to maturity, and should be returned to the palace, the King, out of love, sent the matron for him to bring him into the palace. The soul does not leave this world until such time as the matron has arrived to get her and bring her into the King’s palace, where she abides for ever[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (Jewish Zohar)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Not all of the spirits offered moral knowledge and wisdom are seeking this type of knowledge and wisdom, nor will they all accept this knowledge and wisdom offered them.

This was known by God from the beginning. Speaking of spirits which were to come to earth to receive bodies, it was said that “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world…[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Some of these souls had already sinned and performed poorly in the spirit world (thus the apostles ask regarding the person having sinned before they were born and thus punished by being born blind). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In this life, we are free to choose to seek kindness and to seek love and to seek to be charitable and patient and to seek to become peacemakers in the midst of difficult situations or not. This tendency to seek charity, or conversely, to seek contention and disputation, will, to some extent, determine some characteristics of our developing “spiritual antennas”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regardless of choosing disputation and meanness, Still, I believe God loves those seeking charity and kindness AND those seeking contention and pride, and thus engineers their habitations and their “bounds” for their best benefit because of his endless grace and love for them. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus still offers salvation and redemption to them as well as all mankind who will have faith in Jesus Christ and be obedient to Jesus’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I just saw your post #116 and we are in agreement on the points you made in post # 116.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clearly[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eitseidr[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

TasteForTruth · Oct 22, 2012

inthec said:
I'm not here to put down your religion, so I'm not gonna throw a bunch of pre-determined questions/answers at you to try and make you look bad. I believe everyone has a right to live a peaceful life without being constantly dogged.

I will, however, answer your question in that its things like the Book of Abraham and the whole lack of artifacts issue.

Of course you could try to steer me towards some LDS "in house" experts, or other such material, but that would be like buying a used car you fell in love with at first sight.

For the person thats buying the car, he really wants an independent mechanics advice, not the car salesmans pitch. The mechanic says the car is a lemon, and wouldnt make it to the next town, but you really like the feeling you get when you look at the car because it has all the right curves and lines and a fresh coat of paint.

Praying whether the LDS Church or Book of Mormon is true and ignoring the rest of science would be like ignoring the auto mechanics warning and listening to the salesman and your feelings.

Gotcha. OK. I don't believe that what you ask is a scientific matter. To me it's apples and oranges. I think you ought to read my earlier posts. Your question is framed in a context I've already stated I do not agree with.

bbbbbbb · Oct 22, 2012

TasteForTruth said:
Since when is praying "introspection"? Are you suggesting that when we seek confirmation of truth from a source external to ourselvesGodthat we are, in fact, speaking and listening to ourselves?

I'd like to get this cleared up before I comment further.

I see that I chose a word that proved to be inaccurate. I did not intend introspection to mean merely self-meditation. What I meant was a process in which one does not depend to any reasonable extent upon external authority such as scripture and/or apologetics but, rather upon one's own perception and understanding as to God's personal revelation. All too often, sadly, the result is that people reach erroneous conclusions. I once knew a man who followed this course of divine revelation. Unfortunately, he suffered from schizophrenia and refused to take his medication. The result was audible voices (to him) which instructed him to commit suicide.

The role of apologetics is significant in convincing others of the veracity of one's belief. I remember the time when Hillary Clinton, as First Lady, spoke of a "vast right-wing conspiracy". When questioned about her sources for it, she retreated into silence because, although he knew of its existence, she had no means of verifying it. It still remains questionable as to whether or not such a conspiracy exists. I suppose if Mr. Romney wins this election that might provide fodder for this belief.

Ran77 · Oct 22, 2012

Phoebe Ann said:
There is only one God and one path to God. Jesus never takes second seat in the life of a Christian.

It is Mormonism that moves Christ to a lesser position than the Father.

Interesting. Please explain the following verses in light of the whole second seat thing you describe here.

Matt. 11: 27

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matt. 24: 36

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matt. 26: 53

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Matt. 26: 42

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Luke 22: 29

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luke 2: 49

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Fathers business?

Luke 24: 49

49 ¶And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

John 6: 57

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 16: 28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 14: 31

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 5: 36

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

There's more, but I am out of time and this should be enough.

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