More Water on Mars

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

Liquid water found in Valles Marineris canyon on Mars
Sky News Australia 16 hrs ago

Scientists have found another pocket of water in the Valles Marineris canyon on Mars, according to ANU astrophysicist and cosmologist Dr Brad Tucker.

“Valles Marineris is this giant canyon on Mars, so it’s about 4,000 kilometres wide or long, so it’s wider than Australia, 200 across, and it could be seven kilometres deep, it could be the Grand Canyon on steroids,” he told Sky News Australia.

Dr Tucker said it is believed to have been formed by erosions like canyons on Earth, and [missing word: sampling?] underneath a probe has proved there is liquid water.

“Everywhere we keep looking on Mars, we find ice, we find water underneath the surface,” he said.

“It becomes exciting because we really do think this place was hospitable, did have life, and then it strongly has the chance that’s there now and discoveries like this give us more places to look.”

Source:
Liquid water found in Valles Marineris canyon on Mars (msn.com) (incl Video Interview)

Every drop of water brings us one step closer to MARTIANS!!
(as a youth I regularly OD'd on SciFi.) - OB
http://a.msn.com/01/en-au/AARWesJ?ocid=sf
https://twitter.com/share?url=http:...rer=http://a.msn.com/01/en-au/AARWesJ?ocid=st
https://web.whatsapp.com/send?text=http://a.msn.com/01/en-au/AARWesJ?ocid=sw

Chesterton · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
“It becomes exciting because we really do think this place was hospitable, did have life, and then it strongly has the chance that’s there now and discoveries like this give us more places to look.”

I totally agree. It's becoming exciting because we really then have strongly discoveries chance look place.

jacks · Dec 18, 2021

Neat! And apparently you can drink it...when you find the underground source.

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

Chesterton said:
I totally agree. It's becoming exciting because we really then have strongly discoveries chance look place.

I agree. The English expression in the article is dreadful. Missing words and mangled sentences.

What can I say. It's Sky News - another Murdoch internet/TV dishrag closely related to Fox in the US.
OB

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

jacks said:
Neat! And apparently you can drink it...when you find the underground source.

Nice article.

Looking at the 2nd last para there's chance we could start the War of the Worlds on Mars by accidentally crash landing a nuclear powered rover. The ultimate sign of human involvement appears to be some form of pollution. The Martians will not be impressed.

While an official landing site has yet to be determined for the robotic explorer, scientists will have to use caution when making their selection. The Mars 2020 rover is equipped with a radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) – basically, a nuclear power source. As explained in a recent article, rovers are not allowed to roam the Red Planet all willy nilly; there are specific guidelines governing where they can and cannot go. Since Mars 2020 will rely on nuclear power, it will need to land in an area void of any potential habitable conditions or liquid water. This is a safety precaution in case of a crash landing – they don’t want to wipe out any potential habitable areas.

OB

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
Liquid water found in Valles Marineris canyon on Mars
Sky News Australia 16 hrs ago

Scientists have found another pocket of water in the Valles Marineris canyon on Mars, according to ANU astrophysicist and cosmologist Dr Brad Tucker.

“Valles Marineris is this giant canyon on Mars, so it’s about 4,000 kilometres wide or long, so it’s wider than Australia, 200 across, and it could be seven kilometres deep, it could be the Grand Canyon on steroids,” he told Sky News Australia.

Dr Tucker said it is believed to have been formed by erosions like canyons on Earth, and [missing word: sampling?] underneath a probe has proved there is liquid water.

“Everywhere we keep looking on Mars, we find ice, we find water underneath the surface,” he said.

“It becomes exciting because we really do think this place was hospitable, did have life, and then it strongly has the chance that’s there now and discoveries like this give us more places to look.”

Source:
Liquid water found in Valles Marineris canyon on Mars (msn.com) (incl Video Interview)

Every drop of water brings us one step closer to MARTIANS!!
(as a youth I regularly OD'd on SciFi.) - OB

If this dude's looking at solely at ground penetrating radar images, he needs to read up on this .. and then provide an explanation of his conclusions:
Mars' bright south pole reflections may be clay—not water

Bright reflections observed at Mars' south pole serve as evidence for water. But, seeing may be deceiving.

After measuring the area's electrical properties with orbiting, ground-penetrating radar, an international group of scientists now say that reflections of the red planet's south pole may be smectite, a form of hydrated clay, buried about a mile below the surface, according to a July 29 report in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

Sky news(?) .. Yeah, right.

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

SelfSim said:
If this dude's looking at solely at ground penetrating radar images, he needs to read up on this .. and then provide an explanation of his conclusions:
Mars' bright south pole reflections may be clay—not water
Sky news(?) .. Yeah, right.

Great - a bit of scientific fisticuffs demonstrating that scientists are not sheep tied to the apron strings of an international conspiracy (I love mixed metaphors).

I will await any resolution with interest.

OB

Sabertooth · Dec 18, 2021

What probe is the OP referring to?

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

Sabertooth said:
What probe is the OP referring to?

Tucker mentions MRO. MRO uses the onboard SHARAD radar instrument.
The clay based water article I posted references ESO's Mars Express MARSIS intrument.
Wiki gives a brief comparison of the design capabilities of the two instruments here:

MRO's Shallow Subsurface Radar (SHARAD) experiment is designed to probe the internal structure of the Martian polar ice caps. It also gathers planet-wide information about underground layers of ice, rock and possibly liquid water that might be accessible from the surface. SHARAD uses HF radio waves between 15 and 25 MHz, a range that allows it to resolve layers as thin as 7 m (23 ft) to a maximum depth of 1 km (0.6 mi). It has a horizontal resolution of 0.3 to 3 km (0.2 to 1.9 mi). SHARAD is designed to operate in conjunction with the Mars Express MARSIS, which has lower resolution but penetrates to a much greater depth. Both SHARAD and MARSIS were made by the Italian Space Agency.

I'd say the differences between the respective conclusions probably lies in the method of analysis of the respective data(?)

Has Tucker published a paper on this yet?

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

Sabertooth said:
What probe is the OP referring to?

Article below has more detail.

Water on Mars: Large deposits found below the surface at the equator | New Scientist
"the European Space Agency’s Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) probe, which arrived at Mars in 2016, to spot an unusually high amount of hydrogen in the upper metre of the Martian surface."

OB

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

I reckon the whole SkyNews report is a load of hype.
All Tucker is saying is that there has been general detections from past data/instruments of subsurface water-ice from orbiters and so there's maybe liquid deeper down.
The SkyNews hype then attempts to make out this is ground-breaking news of life on Mars(?)

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

SelfSim said:
Has Tucker published a paper on this yet?

Tucker is a sciencey talking head used on a number of Australian channels as a commentator/reporter/explainer on astrophysical/cosmological stuff.

As far as I know he has no direct involvement with the EU probe.

OB

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

SelfSim said:
I reckon the whole SkyNews report is a load of hype.
All Tucker is saying is that there has been general detections from past data/instruments of subsurface water-ice from orbiters and so there's maybe liquid deeper down.
The SkyNews hype then attempts to make out this is ground-breaking news of life on Mars(?)

SkyNews is often crap. In this case New Scientist also has an article dated 16 Dec 2021.

Water on Mars: Large deposits found below the surface at the equator | New Scientist
The team used the Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector instrument aboard TGO to detect changes in the level of neutron emissions at the Martian surface, finding a reduction in neutrons at the Candor Chaos region of the Valles Marineris that indicates a large amount of hydrogen, suggesting the material below the surface contains about 40 per cent water.

OB

sjastro · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
Tucker is a sciencey talking head used on a number of Australian channels as a commentator/reporter/explainer on astrophysical/cosmological stuff.

As far as I know he has no direct involvement with the EU probe.

OB

Why would a right wing nutjob news service such as SkyNews even bother to report on science since it has nothing to do with blaming leftists for everything such as the sky falling down.
One of the reader's comments shares a similar opinion.

Interesting Story , however the quality of this information is degraded when it comes from Sky news it makes you wonder why a right wing news outlet would have any interest in non fiction stories.

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

sjastro said:
Why would a right wing nutjob news service such as SkyNews even bother to report on science since it has nothing to do with blaming leftists for everything such as the sky falling down.
One of the reader's comments shares a similar opinion.

Dunno. I'm no Sky News fan. Their product is 10% News and 90% opinion by right wing shockjock wannabees often using material photocopied directly from the Fox playbook.

OB

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
SkyNews is often crap. In this case New Scientist also has an article dated 16 Dec 2021.

Water on Mars: Large deposits found below the surface at the equator | New Scientist
The team used the Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector instrument aboard TGO to detect changes in the level of neutron emissions at the Martian surface, finding a reduction in neutrons at the Candor Chaos region of the Valles Marineris that indicates a large amount of hydrogen, suggesting the material below the surface contains about 40 per cent water.

OB

Fine-Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND):

The Fine-Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND) is a neutron detector that is part of the instrument payload on board the Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO), launched to Mars in March 2016. This instrument is currently mapping hydrogen levels to a maximum depth of 1 m (3 ft 3 in) beneath the Martian surface, thus revealing shallow water ice distribution. This instrument has an improved resolution of 7.5 times over the one Russia contributed to NASA's 2001 Mars Odyssey orbiter.

.. only good to depths of 1 m!!!
Surface ice .. at best.

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

SelfSim said:
Fine-Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND):
.. only good to depths of 1 m!!!
Surface ice .. at best.

It can detect down to one meter maximum but isn't it possible that the water extends down below one meter?

OB

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
It can detect down to one meter maximum but isn't it possible that the water extends down below one meter?

OB

Without valid detector evidence data?
Why?

Occams Barber · Dec 18, 2021

SelfSim said:
Without valid detector evidence data?
Why?

Since the detector only operates to a depth of 1 metre we can't discount the possibility that the actual 'water' depth could exceed 1 metre.

I may have misunderstood you, but I had the impression that you were discounting the possibility of 'water' below 1 metre when you suggested it was 'surface ice...at best'.

SelfSim said:
Surface ice .. at best.

OB

SelfSim · Dec 18, 2021

Occams Barber said:
Since the detector only operates to a depth of 1 metre we can't discount the possibility that the actual 'water' depth could exceed 1 metre.

'Possibilities'? .. They're just 'opinions', right?

The truth however, is: 'don't know'.

More Water on Mars

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