More studying about Communion

[TCat]

By the explainations offered in the past I thought I was being told that somehow God used Communion to grant us forgiveness. And I was confused because I thought that Christ's sacrifice was a once and for all forgiveness of sin.
I was having difficulty with the concept of needing to continue to recieve forgiveness repeatedly through the means of grace. As if somehow the elements or Words were continuing to give absolution.
Not that we don't continue to sin and need to be repentant, we do, but Communion doesn't grant us that forgiveness over and over but instead reminds us of our
state of grace.
Is this right?

 

[LilLamb219]

God uses means to transfer the benefits of the cross to us. In the Lord's Supper we do in fact receive forgiveness. It's not a new forgiveness, but the same forgiveness that was won at the cross for us. We don't earn it by taking communion, God gives it as a gift to us so that He can bless us through it.

 

[DaRev]

By the explainations offered in the past I thought I was being told that somehow God used Communion to grant us forgiveness. And I was confused because I thought that Christ's sacrifice was a once and for all forgiveness of sin.
I was having difficulty with the concept of needing to continue to recieve forgiveness repeatedly through the means of grace. As if somehow the elements or Words were continuing to give absolution.
Not that we don't continue to sin and need to be repentant, we do, but Communion doesn't grant us that forgiveness over and over but instead reminds us of our
state of grace.
Is this right?

No.

The Sacrament does grant us forgiveness over and over because we need God's forgiveness over and over. We need this because we sin over and over. The elements and Words do continue to give absolution because we need to receive absolution continually.

 

[TCat]

Not sure I understand but thank you for replying. Is it that when we partake of Communion God renews in our hearts and minds the grace by which we are forgiven?
Aren't we forgiven completely the moment we recieve faith through the Holy Spirit. It is not a partial forgiveness, it is whole and complete is it not? It does not leak out or dissapate, it is finished, right?
So when we come to the table we are recieving a renewal of what we already have by grace, that is a strengthing of faith and reminder of the forgiveness by His mercy and grace, right?

 

[DaRev]

We need real forgiveness everytime we sin. Because grace is resistible we stand to lose our salvation and be lost in our actual sin. The Holy Spirit moves in us contrition and repentance. We then, by His power, seek forgivess through the means He works through, being Word and Sacrament.
The Lord's Supper is not merely a remembrance of forgiveness, but provides real forgiveness.

 

[TCat]

Rev

Are you saying then that if we die between Communions we are unforgiven for those sins? Is Communion like Catholic Confession in that we are should recieve it daily or die without His grace? Is this why the Lutheran Church does not accept OSAS?
We are in such a state as to NEVER have assurance of Salvation because we sin much daily?

 

[DaRev]

Rev

Are you saying then that if we die between Communions we are unforgiven for those sins?

No. The Lord's Supper is a Means of Grace, not the only Means of Grace.

Is Communion like Catholic Confession in that we are should recieve it daily or die without His grace?

The Roman Catholic teaching of grace is incompatible with Lutheran theology. We don't get "demerits" for not taking Communion.

Is this why the Lutheran Church does not accept OSAS?

The Lutheran Church does not accept OSAS because it is contradictory to Scripture.

We are in such a state as to NEVER have assurance of Salvation because we sin much daily?

Our assurance of salvation comes from God's promise.

The Scriptures tell us that we sin daily and need forgiveness daily. God gives us His means for forgiveness. Why would we not want to take advantage of those means?

 

[TCat]

Well I don't know what to believe. I understand LilLamb's post, but Rev what you are saying doesn't jibe with what I am reading about Communion and the means of Grace from what I thought was supposed to be a good Lutheran text that my pastor loaned me.
I guess I need to spend more time in the Word and prayer and try to figure out who is right in this instance.

Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[porterross]

TCat

The LCMS site might help support the answers you are getting here:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2621

 

[DaRev]

Well I don't know what to believe. I understand LilLamb's post, but Rev what you are saying doesn't jibe with what I am reading about Communion and the means of Grace from what I thought was supposed to be a good Lutheran text that my pastor loaned me.
I guess I need to spend more time in the Word and prayer and try to figure out who is right in this instance.

Thank you for answering my questions.

What book are you reading? That might help me figure out where you're coming from because a lot of what you are asking is not at all Lutheran.

 

[TCat]

It's called A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward W. A. Koehler. It's kind of dry but I have been getting many answers to my questions from it. Now I wonder what to believe.

 

[latebloomer]

I agree with Porter. The LCMS site has loads of information.

 

[DaRev]

It's called A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward W. A. Koehler. It's kind of dry but I have been getting many answers to my questions from it. Now I wonder what to believe.

I'm not at all familiar with that book. But if it is telling you that the Lord's Supper is merely a remembrance of forgiveness and not a means of Grace, then it is in horrible error and not at all in line with Lutheran theology.

Perhaps someone who is familiar with that book can enlighten me.

 

[porterross]

It's called A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward W. A. Koehler. It's kind of dry but I have been getting many answers to my questions from it. Now I wonder what to believe.

Have you read to page 226 yet? He clarifies the purpose of forgiveness as a means of grace by receipt of the elements quite clearly beginning at 16 on page 226.

My pastor gave me this book as well, but with all of its references (and dryness), I jumped right into the Book of Concord and my study Bible.

You may be so bored by his approach that you're not giving Koehler time to make his point. Lord knows I was.

 

[filosofer]

I'm not at all familiar with that book. But if it is telling you that the Lord's Supper is merely a remembrance of forgiveness and not a means of Grace, then it is in horrible error and not at all in line with Lutheran theology.

Perhaps someone who is familiar with that book can enlighten me.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
I'm surprised. When applying to the seminary, Koehler was required reading before taking the pre-sem doctrine test. (I also read all three volumes of Pieper's Dogmatics prior to the test).

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[DaRev]

I'm surprised. When applying to the seminary, Koehler was required reading before taking the pre-sem doctrine test. (I also read all three volumes of Pieper's Dogmatics prior to the test).

I guess things have changed. I've never read it. And I don't remember ever even seeing it.

Does it actually say what she is claiming it says??

 

[filosofer]

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
I sold my copy 20+ years ago. My memory is good, but not that good. Sorry can't help you. But I know that Koehler is soldily confessional Lutheran, and he would not have been used as a reference text had there been any kind of questionable statements.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[porterross]

I guess things have changed. I've never read it. And I don't remember ever even seeing it.

Does it actually say what she is claiming it says??

I don't think so, but now we know what you can do after you get here. You can read my copy of it.

 

[DaRev]

I don't think so, but now we know what you can do after you get here. You can read my copy of it.

See what I get for opening my big mouth...

 

[TCat]

Actually I am on 227 #17

The power to convey this grace and forgiveness lies not in the bread and wine, nor in the body and blood of Christ, otherwise also the unworthy would recieve these blessings(1Cor 11:27-29). The assurance of grace is given us through these words: "Given and shed for you for the remission of sins." The body and blood of Christ serve as a seal to make this promise more sure to us.

Forgivenss of sins is given us in the Sacrament not in the sense that we did not have any before; for a believer has forgiveness as long as he has faith.-Nor do we recieve a new supply of forgiveness every time we go to the Lord's Table; for forgiveness and grace are not offered in parts and portions; either we have it for all sins, or for none; either we stand in the grace of God, or we do not.

So do we have the promise and gift of mercy and grace inspite of our sins for as long as we have faith, or do we run out of grace each time we sin and need to renew it for fear of being out of grace if we should die before the chance to recieve a fresh supply of forgiveness?

I know this is making black and white a question that is not so easily answered but I am trying to understand new concepts of Means and what Lutheran teaching says about such things.