Morality

[einstein314emc2]

Creationists often use the argument that evolution and science is immoral. First of all this is just not true. In addition I have found evidence showing just the opposite.

In multiple studies, there is a negative correlation between theism and morality.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence & religion.htm

 

[michabo]

Interesting. I suspect that education in general might be closer linked with morality, and it just so happens that education is also linked with atheism. According to the figures in that article, scientists in general are six times more likely to not believe in a god than the general public, so that can do a whole lot of skewing.

The other point is that the theists who claim that atheists are immoral, aren't basing it on our charity (which the study claims to do), but on our rejection of god which is going against the most important commandments of the bible. We don't believe in god therefore we are immoral.

 

[Forty-Two]

The smarter you are the sillier god is.

The simplest and most parsimonious explanation is that religion is a set of logical and factual claims, and those with the most logic and facts at their disposal are rejecting it largely on those grounds.

IOW, the more education you have the less likely you are to believe in things that arn't real.

 

[Mike Flynn]

The smarter you are the sillier god is.

Thats not true, since we have plenty of ignorant atheists to go 'round. They are called 'militant' atheists.

IOW, the more education you have the less likely you are to believe in things that arn't real.

Which is probably why a large percentage of highly educated people believe in God: He must be real.

Thanks for clearing that up 42.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Creationists often use the argument that evolution and science is immoral.

*amoral* is the correct term. And as far as I know, science clearly is.

First of all this is just not true. In addition I have found evidence showing just the opposite.

Ask yourself if the polling questions are the right ones to test the claims that are being made. You should understand that they are not, since you are an educated person.

 

[michabo]

I don't think it has anything to do with smarts. Perhaps it has nothing even to do with education. Maybe very analytical, sceptical people are more likely to be atheists and also more likely to become scientists. Am I an atheist because I am drawn to science or am I drawn to science because I am an atheist, or neither? And then what's the explaination for the different percentages across the fields? You can't tell me that biologists or chemists are less smart or less educated than physicists, but they have twice the number of theists.

 

[Forty-Two]

Thats not true, since we have plenty of ignorant atheists to go 'round. They are called 'militant' atheists.

I meant generally speaking, of course.

Which is probably why a large percentage of highly educated people believe in God: He must be real.

The percentage goes down with education; a corrolation. In general the more educated you are the less likely you are to believe in things that arn't true (z.B. god).

 

[The Bellman]

Thats not true, since we have plenty of ignorant atheists to go 'round. They are called 'militant' atheists.

Irrelevant. Nobody suggests that there are no ignorant atheists.

*amoral* is the correct term. And as far as I know, science clearly is.

No, the correct term is IMmoral. Remember, he is talking of what many creationists say, not what is true. Science IS amoral; many, however, charge it with being IMmoral.

 

[Mike Flynn]

I meant generally speaking, of course.

But you havn't established reasonable grounds to make that statement. Its just another shrug from 42.

The percentage goes down with education; a corrolation. In general the more educated you are the less likely you are to believe in things that arn't true (z.B. god).

Thats funny 42. But we both know that even if a percentage of educated people believe that God does not exist, doed not mean he does not exist. The fact that you believe otherwise, must put you among those 'ignorant' kinds of educated atheists.

Oh...and I have never seen any atheist make a claim to atheism using either logic or reason. Most often, it is simply a combination of both ingorance and a shrug...and a deliberate unwillingness to test the claims of some religious belief systems.

Its like not believing in quantum theory because you have never personally tested it. That is neither logical nor is it reasonable.

But go ahead and live in that dream world of yours...where the only people who are smart believe the same things you do. And then you can continue to believe that anything a smart person believes must be correct. Rock solid logic 42.

edit: Just to add a point:

The bible says that the 'richer' one is, the more difficult it becomes to recognize truth, since we become distracted by our riches. Thats why some educated poeple tend to steer clear of theism, they become distracted by the knowledge to such an extent, that they draw conclusions that are neither logical, nor are they based on the data.

That happens to be exactly what 42 has done here. Thanks for showing us that the Bible is right 42.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Irrelevant. Nobody suggests that there are no ignorant atheists.

Except 42 is suggesting that the smarter you are, the sillier God becomes. Statements like that are proof that their are ignorant atheists IMO. And at the same time, he appeals to logic and reason while offering nonsense.

I'm curious Bellman, you don't have a problem with invalid claims made by 42, but you have a problem with a bit of toungue and cheek by a theist?

No, the correct term is IMmoral. Remember, he is talking of what many creationists say, not what is true. Science IS amoral; many, however, charge it with being IMmoral.

And many charge that theism is also immoral...and that is an equally incorrect claim.

The point is here, however, that the OP does not demonstrate that 'the opposite is true', implying that science is *moral*.

 

[Western Deity]

Most often, it is simply a combination of both ingorance and a shrug...and a deliberate unwillingness to test the claims of some religious belief systems.

This is what I've been waiting for...

Tell me how I can go about testing the Christian belief system. Please.

 

[Lay down all]

Whether you're moral or immoral so to speak depends on if you serve God.
For as you already and always have to point back to the bible for that's where everything originates from, whether it be morals, laws, religions, creation, it all comes from One and the bible is the written Word for us to know the Truth.

And as scientists and all of us are only men, how can we hold the truth when our truth is based on what we want to be true to benefit us.
God's Word is truth on all things and when you lay down your life to know the Truth the Truth shall be revealed to you.

But when you want to hold onto things in your life and won't listen to anything that comprimises what you want to be true then how can you except any truth, for what you want to be truth is all you can except as truth, so your truth is only what you want to be truth, the same as all men who are not prepared to lay down all their lives for the Truth.

 

[Mike Flynn]

And by the way, gentlemen, moral relativism (a claim held by many atheists), is decidely amoral.

And I have yet to meet an atheist who, while they claim to believe in moral relativism, actually practices it.

Its as curious as a militant atheist making a ritual of attending church every week.

 

[Western Deity]

How do you practice moral relativism?

Moral relativism isn't a set of moral standards.

 

[Mike Flynn]

This is what I've been waiting for...

Tell me how I can go about testing the Christian belief system. Please.

I'm glad you were waiting for it...I guess you care more about religion than your athiesm suggests.

Its simple really, Christianity asks you make certain choices, to embody a certain character, and to try to live according to a certain standard. Moreover, it tells you that when you put your life to this end, then you will experience what Christianity calls the 'good fruit' of the spirit.

Lets get this point clear: you can test the validity of the claims through your own experience with such things. IOW, the test instrument is the human condition and human experience. You cannot simply hand that over to someone else to verify...each is called to verify that through thier own experience.

Isn't this stating the obvious?

 

[Western Deity]

Could you point me in the appropriate direction to have a personal experience that allows me to test this belief system? Lol Pretend you're talking to a stupid 14 year old here.

 

[Mike Flynn]

How do you practice moral relativism? More to the point, how do you not practice it?

Simple. Do you believe that murder and torture of another for pleasure are 'good' or 'bad'.

Would you believe that its acceptable for another to believe that such a thing can be 'good' or do you believe that such a person would be clearly wrong?

Christians would say that such a thing is clearly wrong and anyone saying otherwise is either cracked or confused (and definitly leaning towards harmful behaviour). IOW, they say that such behaviour is not wrong in a relative sense, but in an absolute one. IOW, they claim that it would always cause harm...and could never lead to anything good.

In order to practice moral relativism, one can't make the claim that murder and torture are harmful at all...its not a matter of right or wrong...or better or worse.

Most atheists, despite a cliam to relativism, fail to practice it.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Could you point me in the appropriate direction to have a personal experience that allows me to test this belief system? Lol Pretend you're talking to a stupid 14 year old here.

test the claims: Here are a couple:

-the bible says to value others as you do yourself. Moreover, it calls you to love them in the way that you might your own children. It says to put thier needs ahead of yours instead of constantly worrying about yourself.

here's the point: when you do those things, the bible says that both your life and the lives of others will be greatly enhanced spiritually...and then you will start to understand the experience that Christianity is calling you to test.

 

[MartinM]

Simple. Do you believe that murder and torture of another for pleasure are 'good' or 'bad'

Do I think that they are objectively wrong? No.

Do I, personally, view them as wrong? Yes.

Do I expect everyone else to see things my way? No.

Do I intend to do everything in my power to force my morality on others in this case? Yes.

Does the majority see murder and torture as wrong? Yes, and a damn good thing, too.

Would you believe that its acceptable for another to believe that such a thing can be 'good' or do you believe that such a person would be clearly wrong?

Moral relativism doesn't mean that one has to accept all moralities as equal. Merely that one's rejection of a particular morality is due to subjective factors plus a nice big helping of enlightened self-interest.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Do I intend to do everything in my power to force my morality on others in this case? Yes.

Does the majority see murder and torture as wrong? Yes, and a damn good thing, too.

And these statements are proof that while one can claim to moral relativism in principle...no-one does in practice.