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Morality and Matthew 5

Athée

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Certainly not for the sake of the Old Testament. That has been done away with as fulfilled in Jesus according to His words.
To do so in 'obedience' to God today, would actually be disobedience out of disregard for the Gospel of Jesus Christ

I'm a bit confused since fulfilled very clearly does not mean to do away with . Jesus said to His audience to follow even the least of the laws until heaven and earth pass away.
How cpuld it be disobedient to follow his direct command?
 
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Athée

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I always appreciate you 2PV, excellent work as always. I'm reminded a bit of the twist in Assimov's Foundation series for some reason when I read your fourth option. If true, it does provide a clear interpretive framework so I will have to go do some reading.
I seem to say that quite often after reading your posts
 
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hedrick

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Jesus seemed to endorse the 10 commandments. Mat 5 comments on most of the commandments. Mark 10:17 and parallels specifically endorsed them, and may even have seen it as a salvation issue. It's not so clear that he considered the whole Law mandatory.

In Mat 8:4 he told someone to follow an OT practice that isn't one of the 10 commandments, though there's no reason to think he would expect us to do the same. Matthew seems to have understood his intent as being to publicize the miracle.

Then there's the issue that in these examples he was speaking to Jews, and 1st Cent Jews often didn't consider Gentiles to be under the Law.

He also interpreted the commandments pretty freely. In Mat 5 he more or less replaced the letter with the intent. Note "you have heard .. but I tell you." This is pretty forceful, in that he's claiming the authority to replace Moses' commands. Of course his idea of intent actually created stronger standards the the letter. However in Mat 12:3 he weakened the OT interpretation of the Sabbath law.

I think Jesus expected Jews to obey the Law, though with a somewhat loose interpretation. Maybe like modern Reform Jews. He didn't interact with Gentiles a lot, so it's a bit hard to know his specific expectations. My own approach would be to say that he would expect us to follow the general intent of the 10 commandments, but not the more specific OT commandments.
 
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redleghunter

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You are so right! These apostles preached exactly what Jesus taught them to teach -- the Kingdom gospel, not our gospel of faith alone.

If you're interested: The Eleven and Paul - Church Age is Different
Both are not mutually exclusive. Paul preached the Kingdom through Acts 28 and beyond. You have to understand the holiness of the Kingdom in order to know the Key to it.

“Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.

Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.
(Acts 28:28-31).
 
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redleghunter

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I think the woman at the well in Samaria was the longest conversation with a non Jew .
 
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Athée

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Wow what a reply! Thanks for all your thinking here.
I feel like I didn't quite hear a response to the OP specifically. Or maybe I just missed something that is obvious to you
In light if Jesus' injuctionnto continue it practice all the old laws (2PV's option notwithstanding), how do you square the morality of such a command in the face of the capital punishment passages in the Old testament?
 
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Athée

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I don't think so but maybe I am just not seeing it clearly. When Jesus says he came to fulfill the law (future tense) itbis clear he can't mean do away with it, he says so explicitly. And he gives an end condition, when heaven and earth pass away. If those have not been mwt, then the law still stands as far as I can see.
 
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Athée

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But wait. He said that all should do and teach others to follow all the laws, I don't see why such a broad statement somehow excludes everything but the morality laws. And even if it did, some of the death punishments are for moral infractions so we still need to respond to the OP on that subject.
 
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Athée

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So what laws was Jesus referring to when he said not the least strike of a pen would disappear from them and that we are to continue to follow them and teach others to do likewise unroll heaven and earth pass away?
 
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Athée

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So what did Jesus mean when he said to follow and teach others to follow the entirety of the old law and to do so until heaven and earth pass away?
 
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Athée

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Sure but I am not asking about the east ones like love your neighbors. I am asking about the ones like death to Sabbath breakers, homosexuals and rebellious youth. Do those still apply to anyone today? Why or why not in the context of Matthew 5?
 
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Athée

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In Matthew 5 he references the entirety of the law whic includes all of those things...
 
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Athée

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Seems like the basic argument is that the law was to be part of the kingdom of heaven and that this referee to a a specific time and that we now live after that time has passed.

Is that about right.

Note that Jeuss said his command to obey and teach the law would hold until heaven and earth pass away. Has thst happened yet?
 
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Soyeong

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In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about expressing our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with a willingness to obey God's instructions such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is the obey His commands, which are not burdensome, so it is about growing in a relationship with God based on faith and love.


"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which refers to obeying it as it should be obeyed, not to doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.


In regard to Matthew 22:36-40, the reason why the greatest two commands are the greatest is because they summarize all of the other commands and the reason why all of the other commands hang on the greatest two is because they are examples of what it looks like to correctly obey them. The command to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength is a lot easier said than done, so thankfully we have all of the other commands and Christ's example of obedience to those commands to paint us a picture of what that looks like. So love does not replace the Mosaic Law, but rather love is its essence. We can't obey God's command to love by disregarding all of His other instructions for how He wants us to love.

3. Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience and meant it for them not for the gentile.
3a. This was much more compelling and gave me a lot to think about. It will also serve as the starting point for my main question in this thread.

It is impossible to follow Jesus by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to follow by word and example. Following Jesus is not just for Jews and Gentiles can either choose to follow him or not, but there is no sense in claiming to follow him while refusing to follow him. While the Law was only given to Israel, it was never meant only for Israel because Israel was given the role by God to be a light to the nations, of blessing them by teaching them about Him, to turn from their wicked ways, and to walk in God's ways (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8). There are many other verses that describe God's Law as being instructions for how to walk in His ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Joshua 22:5, and Psalms 103:7, so it is not instructions for how to act like a Jew, but rather it is instructions to all of God's followers for how to reflect His attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:21-22).


You can say that you don't prefer the death penalty for certain offences, but without being able to appeal to standard that is independent of human opinion, you have no way to establish that anyone has a moral obligation to do what you prefer instead of what they prefer, and vice versa. Morality is inherently a theistic concept.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It is a little odd someone who hasn't really studied the Bible to tell us what is in the Bible and that an entire religion was based off of Jesus Christ's death and crucifiction, but that Jesus wasn't telling us what the Bible says it did?

Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Law and He did. The Law was perfect obedience to all of God's Laws and the perfect, Jesus Christ fulfilled that obligation when He died a death after living a perfect life.

No one up until Jesus had ever done that. When He died, still having been perfect, the Law was fulfilled in that someone had kept it perfectly.

Would you like the Bible verses so you can look at them or something? You've gotten a lot of good answers here in this thread, which you didn't respond to except to say we are wrong, but you are only in Matthew chapter 5 and there is the whole rest of that gospel and four others that have a lot of content.

So how do you feel you have made your case? Or are you not trying to understand, only to tell us what you don't see as possible which doesn't jive with the 31,000 verses in the Bible?
 
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Sketcher

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There are many laws that Jews haven't practiced since the temple in Jerusalem was torn down, since they require a temple or tabernacle. There are also laws that Jews are not to practice outside of Israel, if my understanding is correct. Finally, one needs to look at the purpose of the laws on the death penalty and slavery, and the legal conditions that have to be in place for them to be legitimate options. Jewish sources can get quite verbose on these topics. I haven't found one yet that advocates taking slaves today, btw.

At the the end of the day, if after all that there is still room for slavery of non-Jews and executing Jews who commit certain sins, God commanded it. Because the holy God determines right and wrong, and gives us all rights that we have - governments can either respect and protect those rights, or deny them and trample them, not give them or take them away - the "dos" he gives us are moral for us to do, and the "don'ts" he gives us are immoral for us to do.

However, Jewish Christians are under the New Covenant as well. By faith, they uphold the Law, but the words of Jesus are supreme. This is why the Jewish believers in Acts didn't organize into death squads to kill sorcerers and fortune tellers - they exorcised them and preached to them instead. Nor is there any New Testament example of taking on a new slave - the closest anyone can come is Paul sending Onesimus back to Philemon to reconcile the two of them.
 
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PamCAID

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Yes to a specific time. No to already past.

Their Kingdom is still coming. We have to be gone first. And guess what follows the Kingdom -- eternity, when heaven and earth pass!

I have many other charts here on CF Media under Rightly Dividing or at my site.
 

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redleghunter

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It does have context. The ceremonial and purity ordinances were fulfilled in Christ. He is saying these things before His death and resurrection.
 
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redleghunter

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So what laws was Jesus referring to when he said not the least strike of a pen would disappear from them and that we are to continue to follow them and teach others to do likewise unroll heaven and earth pass away?
Read Hebrews. This is Exploring Christianity. If it is your desire to truly explore read Hebrews. I already provided that when Jesus was speaking He had yet to be crucified and resurrected.
 
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