Morality and Law

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

How do you think, in today's American society, laws are chosen?

I believe, with looking at the evidence, things are made illegal for one of two things.

1.) They hurt another
2.) They are proven to lead to the hurt of another (cocaine is illegal because drug addiction is shown to lead to crime)

Is this the way other's see laws in the US, or do you think they are based on other things?

I don't see any relation between morality in the bible and laws of the United States. They share some in common, but that is all. Do you think that America should adopt all bible laws as national laws? If so, what about those bible laws that other religions don't suscribe to? Or the laws of other religions that you don't suscribe to?

 

[lijeb]

Do you think that America should adopt all bible laws as national laws?

/me shudders

No thanks. Just from being on these forums it is easy to see what a mess there would be. Whose idea of what's Biblical law should you take?

 

[mepalmer3]

How do you think, in today's American society, laws are chosen?

I believe, with looking at the evidence, things are made illegal for one of two things.

1.) They hurt another
2.) They are proven to lead to the hurt of another (cocaine is illegal because drug addiction is shown to lead to crime)

Is this the way other's see laws in the US, or do you think they are based on other things?

I'm pretty cynical with politics. What about laws restricting trade? What about laws about taxes? What about laws with what you can/can't do on your own property? What about laws that force people to go back to their homeland where they will most likely suffer more? What about laws that change district voting lines?

I'm not going to provide any examples... but I think lawmakers pander to their constituents, especially the rich ones or businesses. Laws are made in part because people want to get re-elected.

I don't see any relation between morality in the bible and laws of the United States. They share some in common, but that is all. Do you think that America should adopt all bible laws as national laws? If so, what about those bible laws that other religions don't suscribe to? Or the laws of other religions that you don't suscribe to?

There is quite a bit of common ground between all civilizations and morality. As far as laws in common with the bible... at first I thought you might be wrong. Then the more I thought about it, the more I realized that our US laws really are a pretty poor example of morality. Granted, it's to give people more freedom. But you're right, the US law says by all means, get married as many times as you want, commit adultery as often as you'd like, treat your family like **** if you want, tell your kids that they suck in school. (Granted, the law doesn't say that, there is just no law against it, so it's not saying it's wrong). But biblical morality says all of those things are very wrong. Hmm... I think I firmly reject the idea of a government pushing too many morals onto people. On paper it sounds really good. And I think it can work ok for a season. But historically I think it's worked out for the worst. Christianity experienced incredible growth when it started out when there was NO political power and great persecution for it's believers. So for the spread of christianity, it seems to work out better if it's not trying to be forced.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

I'm pretty cynical with politics. What about laws restricting trade? What about laws about taxes? What about laws with what you can/can't do on your own property? What about laws that force people to go back to their homeland where they will most likely suffer more? What about laws that change district voting lines?

I'm not going to provide any examples... but I think lawmakers pander to their constituents, especially the rich ones or businesses. Laws are made in part because people want to get re-elected.

You've got a point there. Let me simplfy though. I mean laws that pertain to the US citizens. Ones that we need to abide by.

I'll get to your second part later. I've got to be off to school.

 

[Blackmarch]

How do you think, in today's American society, laws are chosen?

I believe, with looking at the evidence, things are made illegal for one of two things.

1.) They hurt another
2.) They are proven to lead to the hurt of another (cocaine is illegal because drug addiction is shown to lead to crime)

Is this the way other's see laws in the US, or do you think they are based on other things?

I don't see any relation between morality in the bible and laws of the United States. They share some in common, but that is all. Do you think that America should adopt all bible laws as national laws? If so, what about those bible laws that other religions don't suscribe to? Or the laws of other religions that you don't suscribe to?

They're made based on the morality of the majority in congress.

 

[mepalmer3]

I'm curious, along this very line of questioning...

Congress passes laws that they think are right and presumedly they think their choice is right because people voted for them. So if some group really gets out to vote and makes a big impact on the election, then can't that group expect that laws will be passed in accordance to how they would want?

Or if that's not clear... A lot of people seem to NOT want christian influence in the passing of laws. So if the christian group really gets out and elects all christian leaders, then shouldn't we expect laws to be passed that center around a christian morality? If we say no, that shouldn't happen, then haven't we just kicked democracy in the gut? Group A gets an official elected. That official will pass a law along moral lines of group A. And that seems to be accepted unless group A is christian (or presumedly some other religious group).

This seems to imply also that morals are relative. It may be wrong for christians, but not for other people. But if this is the case, then isn't it the same to say we're going to take ANY moral code from some group and force it on another?

 

[lijeb]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Very good questions.

I'm curious, along this very line of questioning...

Congress passes laws that they think are right and presumedly they think their choice is right because people voted for them. So if some group really gets out to vote and makes a big impact on the election, then can't that group expect that laws will be passed in accordance to how they would want?

This is how it is supposed to be. But we probably all know that it doesn't always work out like this.

Or if that's not clear... A lot of people seem to NOT want christian influence in the passing of laws. So if the christian group really gets out and elects all christian leaders, then shouldn't we expect laws to be passed that center around a christian morality? If we say no, that shouldn't happen, then haven't we just kicked democracy in the gut? Group A gets an official elected. That official will pass a law along moral lines of group A. And that seems to be accepted unless group A is christian (or presumedly some other religious group).

Yes, you are absolutely correct. But, the thing is, no matter what group is trying to get laws passed, they are not allowed to stop individual freedom, within reason, or go against the constitution. For lack of a better example, let's use gay marriage. A lot of Christians would like to see gay civil unions illegal. Now let's say that we have elected an all Christian government and they are making the laws. In order to make gay civil unions illegal, you will have to show that it has some sort of negative effect on people or society. Basically, you will have to show that it causes harm. Here's the catch though. You can't use the bible to do it. Because of the first ammendmant, the government may not take the bible as being correct or incorrect. They can't say it is true or not. Because of this, they cannot base laws off something that they cannot consider to be true.

This seems to imply also that morals are relative. It may be wrong for christians, but not for other people. But if this is the case, then isn't it the same to say we're going to take ANY moral code from some group and force it on another?

Morals are relative. I think that the thing that people don't always realize, when they say things like "atheists morals are laws" and the like, is that really they aren't. The US law system is set up to be as free as possible. Saying that abortion is legal isn't regulating the government with one persons morals. You are not FORCED to have an abortion. You may choose to, or not. Morals aren't made into laws. The society is set up to be as free as possible. If the US were really using humanistic morals as laws, then they would be telling people what they CAN'T do, but this isn't the case. Notice how Christian morals always tell people what they CAN'T do. This goes against freedom. If Chistian morals were law, then people wouldn't be free to live life to their own morals. With the system we have now, everyone, including Christians, are able to live life by their own morals. Person A thinks abortion is moral. Person A is allowed to abort. Person B thinks abortion is immoral. Person B is allowed to not abort.

The problem with Christian morals, is that if they were laws, person A wouldn't be able to live, according to his morals.

Does that make any sense? LOL

 

[Dennis Moore]

How do you think, in today's American society, laws are chosen?

I assume, by the gist of the rest of your post, that you mean criminal law.

I believe, with looking at the evidence, things are made illegal for one of two things.

1.) They hurt another
2.) They are proven to lead to the hurt of another (cocaine is illegal because drug addiction is shown to lead to crime)

I would love to see your evidence of the cocaine assertion ... and I mean proof that the addiction would lead to crime regardless of the legality of the drug involved.

Beyond that, criminal laws are written for a number of reasons, but you've hit a basic: harming another. Most criminal law is centered upon harm caused to another--murder, assault, slander, etc. Not all, but most.

Do you think that America should adopt all bible laws as national laws? If so, what about those bible laws that other religions don't suscribe to? Or the laws of other religions that you don't suscribe to?

ALL Bible laws? Like, all the OT laws? Stoning rape victims and adulterers? Banning mixed-fabric clothes? Not eating "dirty" foods? Wow, that's a LOOOONNGG jump from the first part of the OP.

Religious laws are written to govern the behaviors of a group of believers. Civic law is written to govern the behaviors of a state. The two are so un-alike in purpose and form that to legislate the Bible as civic law would be madness.

 

[kdet]

So why is prostitution illegal in most states? It doesn't hurt anyone and it doesn't lead to other illegal activity.

 

[Dennis Moore]

So if the christian group really gets out and elects all christian leaders, then shouldn't we expect laws to be passed that center around a christian morality?

No, we should expect them to pass laws in accordance with the documents that govern the nation, such as the Constitution.

If we say no, that shouldn't happen, then haven't we just kicked democracy in the gut?

We are not a true democracy, but a representative republic. One of the reasons we aren't a true democracy is because of the problem of the "tyranny of the majority," which is exactly the sort of thing you're describing. Politicians must respect and represent all the people when they make laws, not just the majority. And the Constitution forbids treading on the minority at the whim of the majority.

 

[kdet]

The Reality About Legislating Morality

http://www.therant.us/staff/duke/the_reality_about_legislating_morality.htm

 

[Blackmarch]

So why is prostitution illegal in most states? It doesn't hurt anyone and it doesn't lead to other illegal activity.

Like proliferating STDs?

while on paper they shouldn't, but in real life it does

 

[Randall McNally]

Or if that's not clear... A lot of people seem to NOT want christian influence in the passing of laws. So if the christian group really gets out and elects all christian leaders, then shouldn't we expect laws to be passed that center around a christian morality? If we say no, that shouldn't happen, then haven't we just kicked democracy in the gut? Group A gets an official elected. That official will pass a law along moral lines of group A. And that seems to be accepted unless group A is christian (or presumedly some other religious group).

The problem with this is that the US is not a true democracy. The Constitution has built-in provisions - the Bill of Rights - in addition to related documents like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that are intended to prevent legislative actions based on religious principles that would remove rights.

This seems to imply also that morals are relative. It may be wrong for christians, but not for other people. But if this is the case, then isn't it the same to say we're going to take ANY moral code from some group and force it on another?

To some extent. But the Constitution and the courts have doctrinal and precedential guidelines to help determine if proposed 'moral laws' also have certain secular purposes.

 

[kdet]

Like proliferating STDs?

while on paper they shouldn't, but in real life it does

Having casuel sex can spread STDS but we don't make sex outside of marriage illegal so why should prostitution be illegal?

 

[kdet]

Many of our laws are based purely upon moral or religious standards. All laws regarding marriage are based upon morality. The same is true with prostitution, assisted suicide and drug use just to name a few. Why is it that we don’t allow people to have sex with animals or with corpses, and why do we require that you can only have one spouse at a time?

In 1986, the Supreme Court in the Bowers v. Hardwick case noted that laws are “constantly based on notions of morality, and if all laws representing essential moral choices are to be invalidated, . . .the courts will be very busy indeed.”
http://www.lc.org/radiotv/nlj/nlj0803.htm

 

[lijeb]

So why is prostitution illegal in most states? It doesn't hurt anyone and it doesn't lead to other illegal activity.

Because it is too easy for people to be coerced into prostitution.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

I assume, by the gist of the rest of your post, that you mean criminal law.

I would love to see your evidence of the cocaine assertion ... and I mean proof that the addiction would lead to crime regardless of the legality of the drug involved.

Beyond that, criminal laws are written for a number of reasons, but you've hit a basic: harming another. Most criminal law is centered upon harm caused to another--murder, assault, slander, etc. Not all, but most.

ALL Bible laws? Like, all the OT laws? Stoning rape victims and adulterers? Banning mixed-fabric clothes? Not eating "dirty" foods? Wow, that's a LOOOONNGG jump from the first part of the OP.

Religious laws are written to govern the behaviors of a group of believers. Civic law is written to govern the behaviors of a state. The two are so un-alike in purpose and form that to legislate the Bible as civic law would be madness.

As to cocaine assertion, I recently visited a county jail for a research paper dealing with addiction, and its leads to criminal activity. Around 95 percent of the people that I talked to were there because of drug related crimes. They needed to support a habbit, so they stole and robbed. I also saw this with the intership that I did at a drug clinic. They all had stolen and committed other crimes to support their habit. The biggest drug I saw to cause this? Crack-cocaine. I can find statistics if you'd like, but... I can assure you that this is the case.

 

[Marz Blak]

So why is prostitution illegal in most states? It doesn't hurt anyone and it doesn't lead to other illegal activity.

Like proliferating STDs?

while on paper they shouldn't, but in real life it does

One could argue that to the extent that prostitution does cause proliferation of STDs, one of the primary reasons is BECAUSE it is illegal, and if it were made legal and regulated with things like mandatory testing of sex-workers, mandatory workplace standards like use of personal protective equipment (e.g., condoms), any tendency for prostitution to cause proliferation of STDs would be greatly mitigated if not practically eliminated.

There are examples that shows this to be an effective approach to controlling STDs in the sex trades-- Clark Co., NV, the Netherlands, the Southern California-based pornography industry, all of which have required testing regimes, and all of which have very good statistics with regard to STD frequency.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Many of our laws are based purely upon moral or religious standards.

Like?

All laws regarding marriage are based upon morality.

Apparently not, because it is immoral to get a divorce or marry more than once, and this is legal.

The same is true with prostitution,

Prostitutes are put into danger when they step into a car. Why is it legal in Nevada? Because they found a way to regulate it where it wouldn't be dangerous.[/quote]

assisted suicide

Assisted suicide is illegal because there is no proof that this person wanted to die. Once there dead, it's very easy to say that they wanted to die.

and drug use just to name a few.

Nothing to do with morals. It leads to other crimes to support a habbit.

Why is it that we don’t allow people to have sex with animals or with corpses

Perhaps there is a law against this, but I'm not aware of one.

and why do we require that you can only have one spouse at a time?

So the government doesn't have to give out multiple ammounts of money to one person for his 18 wives.

In 1986, the Supreme Court in the Bowers v. Hardwick case noted that laws are “constantly based on notions of morality, and if all laws representing essential moral choices are to be invalidated, . . .the courts will be very busy indeed.”
http://www.lc.org/radiotv/nlj/nlj0803.htm

That's nice.