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Moral Status of an Unborn Child

FSTDT

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I believe killing people is wrong, because the moral value of a person's life profoundly exceeds any trivial happiness that any murderer can gain from killing.

Humans are morally valuable because they can experience suffering and satisfaction, make plans, form long-term goals, have desires, have wants, and above all they are rational creatures with an expressed interest in their continued existence. When you kill a person, you violate all of those, and you gain next to nothing for it; even more, the harm that you do for killing the person can never ever be recovered, whereas the pleasure someone gets for killing is fleeting and trivial at best. So, killing is wrong by a simple utilitarian calculation, that it causes profoundly more harm than satisfaction.

However, notice everything above, particularly the points about the capacity to suffer and be a rational being. Everything I listed above is a measure of moral value, but none of those measures of moral value apply to the fetus (at least not for the first 26 weeks). During the period of time when 99% of abortions occur, I can think of no measures of moral value that apply to the fetus.

For this reason, I find it incredibly difficult to accept that abortion is morally wrong.

My claim has nothing to do directly with whether a woman has a choice, its really a claim that questions the centrally important tenet of the pro-life movement: that the fetus has moral value. I don't believe this is true, and I don't believe the pro-life movement has shown this to be the case.





Postscript:

Believe me, I love human life more than most people, however I value human life for the morally relevant capacities (like the ability to suffer) that people have. If a creature lacks the capacity to suffer, see itself over time, be rational, or desire to live, then it is really hard to me to pin down just what moral value it has at all.

Before everyone jumps all over me saying that its a life, I agree. It is a life. But, it just doesn't have any moral value. Killing living things is not wrong in itself, otherwise eating plants and disinfecting countertops would be as morally wrong as murder of an adult human; its not wrong to kill plants because they cannot suffer or want anything at all. This clearly implies that its not the fact that something is alive that matters morally, its the experiences; and the reason why we protect the continued existence of life is to protect the experiences. However, I do not believe an unborn fetus has any experiences at all, so I'm not convinced there is anything being protected by criminalizing abortion.

And I understand that an unborn fetus is a human life, but I don't believe being a member of human species matters any more than being a member of the cat species or snails species. Species membership is not a moral quality, but rather the experiences of an organism matter morally.

Finally, I don't believe the argument that the fetus is a potential human has any merit. After all, condoms and menstruation thwart the existence of potential humans, but no one (except a tiny minority of religious conservatives) believes that condoms and menstruation are acts of murder. The implications of the previous sentence indicate that isn't sensible to measure the status of the fetus according to properties that it only potentially has, but rather the moral status of the fetus should be weighed on the morally relevant capacities that it actually has.
 
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Galilean

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From the moment you are conceived all of your genetic data is there. When you abort a fetus and no matter what stage of its development from conception on then you are destroying a life, there is no denying it. All of the genetic data for a unique human being is there. If you give birth to a child with red hair, green eyes, his mother's smile, his father's eyes, a talent for playing the piano etc, ALL of those characteristics have existed since the moment of conception.
 
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FSTDT

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Galilean said:
From the moment you are conceived all of your genetic data is there. When you abort a fetus and no matter what stage of its development from conception on then you are destroying a life, there is no denying it. All of the genetic data for a unique human being is there. If you give birth to a child with red hair, green eyes, his mother's smile, his father's eyes, a talent for playing the piano etc, ALL of those characteristics have existed since the moment of conception.
See the opening post:
FSTDT (opening post) said:
Before everyone jumps all over me saying that its a life, I agree. It is a life. But, it just doesn't have any moral value. Killing living things is not wrong in itself, otherwise eating plants and disinfecting countertops would be as morally wrong as murder of an adult human; its not wrong to kill plants because they cannot suffer or want anything at all. This clearly implies that its not the fact that something is alive that matters morally, its the experiences; and the reason why we protect the continued existence of life is to protect the experiences. However, I do not believe an unborn fetus has any experiences at all, so I'm not convinced there is anything being protected by criminalizing abortion.
I agree, its a life from the moment of conception. However, I don't see any explanation for why the fetus has any moral status at all. Destroying life is not wrong in itself, its wrong because destroys a person's experiences and interests, but a fetus has none at all.

What measures of moral value apply to the fetus?
 
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katautumn

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As I pointed out in another thread, the argument that life begins at conception and that is why abortion is wrong is a moot point. It is invalid to use the fact that the zygote has all of the chromosones needed at the point of the conception before implantation. A single strand or hair or a cuticle clipping has the exact same number of unique DNA strands and human chromosones as a fertilized egg. To grant legal protection to a conjoined sperm and egg at the moment of conception and elevate its status to "full personhood" is ridiculous, as two thirds of all zygotes will never even make it to the woman's uterus for implantation.
 
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Mandevar

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FSTDT said:
Finally, I don't believe the argument that the fetus is a potential human has any merit. After all, condoms and menstruation thwart the existence of potential humans, but no one (except a tiny minority of religious conservatives) believes that condoms and menstruation are acts of murder. The implications of the previous sentence indicate that isn't sensible to measure the status of the fetus according to properties that it only potentially has, but rather the moral status of the fetus should be weighed on the morally relevant capacities that it actually has.

I have been pondering this issue recently and I humbly disagree. I do not even know exactly how or when embryo/zygote formation occurs or the correct terms. But, as I see it, as soon as the fetus attaches to the womb, as soon as it forms a physical connection with the mother (nourishment n all), it is life, or at least, truly potential life. You compared it to condoms, and I don't see that as potential life. I mean, of course it is in the literal sense, but to say a sperm cell is equivlent to the actual potential growth of a fetus into a baby seems a bit... far fetched.... but it may only seem that way to me.

I am sure no one ever really wants to learn of a fetus/baby being aborted, its not a pretty thing. I would really hope adoption could be used as an alternative. Now I could never imagine how women could possibly feel, but I don't know how they could think abortion is a better choice than adoption.
 
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FSTDT

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Mandevar said:
I have been pondering this issue recently and I humbly disagree. I do not even know exactly how or when embryo/zygote formation occurs or the correct terms. But, as I see it, as soon as the fetus attaches to the womb, as soon as it forms a physical connection with the mother (nourishment n all), it is life, or at least, truly potential life. You compared it to condoms, and I don't see that as potential life. I mean, of course it is in the literal sense, but to say a sperm cell is equivlent to the actual potential growth of a fetus into a baby seems a bit... far fetched.... but it may only seem that way to me.
It still isn't clear to me. What measures of moral value apply to the fetus if its only a potential life?

I am sure no one ever really wants to learn of a fetus/baby being aborted, its not a pretty thing. I would really hope adoption could be used as an alternative. Now I could never imagine how women could possibly feel, but I don't know how they could think abortion is a better choice than adoption.
Adoption is one option, but I think this misses the point. Adoption being an option doesn't have anything to do with the moral status of the fetus. If no measures of moral status apply to the fetus, then there are no morally compelling reasons why adoption excludes abortion if a woman did not genuinely want to carry her pregnancy to term.
 
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Mandevar

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FSTDT said:
It still isn't clear to me. What measures of moral value apply to the fetus if its only a potential life?
Life is life, IMO. Potential or not. Potential life = life. Sperm =/= life. Therefore the potential life argument still applies to me. I tried to point that out with the nourishment/connecting to mother n stuff. As soon as that happens, I consider it a living being. I dont like your 26 week thing... so at 6 months and 1 week and 6 days 23 hours 59 minutes 59 seconds you dont think it deserves to live (I know the numbers arent exact, but pinpointing a precise moment seems wrong to me... "oh there it can feel pain! now it cant be aborted, but you could have aborted 10 seconds ago when he didnt feel anything"), or has any moral value, but the next second it does? sorry for the exaggeration
 
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corvus_corax

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FSTDT said:
Humans are morally valuable because they can experience suffering and satisfaction, make plans, form long-term goals, have desires, have wants, and above all they are rational creatures with an expressed interest in their continued existence. When you kill a person, you violate all of those, and you gain next to nothing for it; even more, the harm that you do for killing the person can never ever be recovered, whereas the pleasure someone gets for killing is fleeting and trivial at best. So, killing is wrong by a simple utilitarian calculation, that it causes profoundly more harm than satisfaction.
A one-week old infant does not make plans or form long term goals
They are not rational creatures
It can be argued that one of the differences between a 9+ month fetus in the womb and a birthed child is the formation of desires, wants and needs, but that's about it.
So, is aborting (for convenience) okay at 9+ months?
What, exactly, is the criteria for "morally valuable" entities?
Is it the ability to plan and make long term goals?
Obviously not, otherwise killing newborns would be legal
Is it the ability to reason and rationalize?
Obviously not, otherwise killing newborns would be legal
FSTDT said:
However, notice everything above, particularly the points about the capacity to suffer and be a rational being.
Fetuses can suffer pain
Does that make them morally valuable?
Newborns cannot rationalize. Does that make them morally invaluable (and subject to death)?
FSTDT said:
During the period of time when 99% of abortions occur, I can think of no measures of moral value that apply to the fetus.
So you are speaking of only during the first 26 weeks then?
What of making plans and long term goals?
26 week old fetuses cannot make such, just as one week old newborns cannot
Im failing to see the difference based solely on your statements.
FSTDT said:
For this reason, I find it incredibly difficult to accept that abortion is morally wrong.
Would you agree that killing newborns, who lack the ability to make plans and create long term goals, see itself over time, and who lack the ability to rationalize, is morally acceptable then?
 
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h2whoa

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Galilean said:
From the moment you are conceived all of your genetic data is there. When you abort a fetus and no matter what stage of its development from conception on then you are destroying a life, there is no denying it. All of the genetic data for a unique human being is there. If you give birth to a child with red hair, green eyes, his mother's smile, his father's eyes, a talent for playing the piano etc, ALL of those characteristics have existed since the moment of conception.

God is obviously a keen abortionist given that over 50% of conceptions spontaneously abort...
 
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katautumn

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Gililiean said:
whats your point ?

What's my point? My point was simply to clarify an erroneous claim you made. You stated emphatically that:

From the moment you are conceived all of your genetic data is there. When you abort a fetus and no matter what stage of its development from conception on then you are destroying a life, there is no denying it.

*emphasis mine*
 
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jayem

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IMO, a pre-viable fetus has the moral status of exactly what it is. We should create a special moral category--that of "fetus." Almost a person, but not quite. It should be valued and protected as a potential person, but it is not fully a "person" in a legal or moral sense until one of two times, whichever comes first: 1) it is born, or 2) it becomes naturally viable--24 weeks of gestational age. Before viability, if still in utero, the mother's moral right to bodily automony supercedes any rights of a fetus. But once it is born, no matter how prematurely, or, if unborn, once it reaches 24 weeks, then it should be considered a separate person with rights independent of it's mother's.
 
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loriersea

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I think it is a problem to lump all fetal life together. There is a vast, vast difference between a newly-implanted fertilized egg, a fetus at 18 weeks gestation, and a fetus at 35 weeks gestation. To act as if there is no difference between those--that either we are a person at the moment of conception or that a fetus has no value at all until birth--makes no sense, since an enormous amount of development happens in the 40 weeks of a pregnancy.

For me, the moral value of the fetus has to do with its ability to have experiences. I do not mean long-term planning, or self-awareness, or higher reasoning abilities, or anything like that, because I am fully aware that those things don't develop until long after birth, but simple the ability to perceive, to have sensations and perceptions, to have the most basic ability to experience in the most basic sense. Doing so requires brain activity. Although we obviously can't know for sure if a fetus has experiences, it would be impossible for them to do so before about 20 weeks or so, when their brain develops to the point where experience would become at least a theoretical possibility. To me, at that point, we are talking about an organism that should be treated with the same value as other human beings.

Before that, I think that limiting abortions is all right and makes sense, given that we should take the nurturing of potential life seriously, provided that a window of time is available in which women can have elective abortions for whatever reason they wish, but definitely not a moral imperative. I do think that it is a moral imperative to protect fetuses once they are capable of sensation and perception in any meaningful sense.

And, yes, I do mean by this that I do not think we have a moral imperative to protect the lives of people who are brain dead. Being a person must mean more than simply having human DNA, and I think that the ability to feel, perceive, and experience (not at any complex level, but at least in some rudimentary way) is what makes the difference.
 
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FSTDT

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Mandevar said:
Life is life, IMO. Potential or not. Potential life = life. Sperm =/= life. Therefore the potential life argument still applies to me. I tried to point that out with the nourishment/connecting to mother n stuff. As soon as that happens, I consider it a living being.
See opening post:
FSTDT (Opening Post) said:
Before everyone jumps all over me saying that its a life, I agree. It is a life. But, it just doesn't have any moral value. Killing living things is not wrong in itself, otherwise eating plants and disinfecting countertops would be as morally wrong as murder of an adult human; its not wrong to kill plants because they cannot suffer or want anything at all. This clearly implies that its not the fact that something is alive that matters morally, its the experiences; and the reason why we protect the continued existence of life is to protect the experiences. However, I do not believe an unborn fetus has any experiences at all, so I'm not convinced there is anything being protected by criminalizing abortion.

I dont like your 26 week thing... so at 6 months and 1 week and 6 days 23 hours 59 minutes 59 seconds you dont think it deserves to live (I know the numbers arent exact, but pinpointing a precise moment seems wrong to me... "oh there it can feel pain! now it cant be aborted, but you could have aborted 10 seconds ago when he didnt feel anything"), or has any moral value, but the next second it does? sorry for the exaggeration
Particularly, 26 weeks the threshhold for pain, but I feel its justifiable to draw a 2 week safety net around that time to compensate for fetuses who develop faster than others. Right now, this timeframe is roughly equivalent to our current abortion laws.


Galilean,
However, I don't see any explanation for why the fetus has any moral status at all. Destroying life is not wrong in itself, its wrong because destroys a person's experiences and interests, but a fetus has none at all.

Oh dear god....
See opening post:
FSTDT (opening post) said:
Killing living things is not wrong in itself, otherwise eating plants and disinfecting countertops would be as morally wrong as murder of an adult human; its not wrong to kill plants because they cannot suffer or want anything at all. This clearly implies that its not the fact that something is alive that matters morally, its the experiences; and the reason why we protect the continued existence of life is to protect the experiences. However, I do not believe an unborn fetus has any experiences at all, so I'm not convinced there is anything being protected by criminalizing abortion.
Unless a fetus has experiences that I don't know about, I don't know what your objection to anything I said was.


corvus_corax,
A one-week old infant does not make plans or form long term goals
They are not rational creatures
It can be argued that one of the differences between a 9+ month fetus in the womb and a birthed child is the formation of desires, wants and needs, but that's about it.
So, is aborting (for convenience) okay at 9+ months?
What, exactly, is the criteria for "morally valuable" entities?
Is it the ability to plan and make long term goals?
Obviously not, otherwise killing newborns would be legal
Is it the ability to reason and rationalize?
Obviously not, otherwise killing newborns would be legal
Newborns have the capacity to suffer and experience satisfaction, and the preservation of these capacities depends on their continued living existence. We weigh the killing of all beings, feeling or not, according to the same utilitarian principles: would killing contribute to more satisfaction of good than not killing?

For feeling beings, the answer is no. A feeling being's continued experiences of pleasure and satisfaction are morally valuable, but if you killed the being you take away its experiences permanently and irrevocably; the satisfaction that you get from killing is trivial and fleeting at best. Whereas the infant has no more chance to be happy again, the killer does; so, killing a newborn is morally worse than telling someone they are not allowed to kill newborns.

The capacity to feel pain is a measure of moral value which applies to infants (and unborn fetuses after 26 weeks), so their lives are worth protecting for just that much. But, I don't believe this measure applies to fetuses.

Based on your remaining responses to me, you seem to think that I believe moral value comes in "all or nothing" packages. But that isn't true, moral value comes in degrees, its not an all or nothing thing. If someone has the capacity to feel pain and nothing else, it has some moral value; if something has the capacity to feel pain, appreciate its own existence, and one day hopes to write a novel, that person a greater claim to moral value. A newborn meets some measures of moral value, but an unborn fetus does not.

Now, before you accuse me of being misanthropic, I'm not saying that a newborn deserves less respect than a human adult. I believe its just the opposite. Because newborns and human adults matter morally, but a newborn can't take care of itself without the assistence of others, we are bound to invest more interest in feeding, clothing, and loving the newborn child to protect it from suffering than any adult human. Its a simple utilitarian calculation: a newborn suffers more if we paid more attention to adults, than an adult would suffer for us paying more attention to newborns, so we're obligated to invest more of our energy protecting newborns than adults.

Fetuses can suffer pain
Does that make them morally valuable?
They don't feel pain for the first 26 weeks. Before that, I can think of no measures of moral value that apply to them. What measures of moral value apply to them before this time?

Would you agree that killing newborns, who lack the ability to make plans and create long term goals, see itself over time, and who lack the ability to rationalize, is morally acceptable then?
No.

As mentioned above, you seem to think I have an "all or nothing" way of thinking of a beings moral value, that isn't true.
 
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corvus_corax

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FSTDT said:
As mentioned above, you seem to think I have an "all or nothing" way of thinking of a beings moral value, that isn't true.
No, that was not my intent. Sorry 'bout that

Now, I'll get back and read the entirety of your reply to me :)
 
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shinbits

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FSTDT said:
However, notice everything above, particularly the points about the capacity to suffer and be a rational being. Everything I listed above is a measure of moral value, but none of those measures of moral value apply to the fetus (at least not for the first 26 weeks). During the period of time when 99% of abortions occur, I can think of no measures of moral value that apply to the fetus.

For this reason, I find it incredibly difficult to accept that abortion is morally wrong.
Isn't it morally wrong to rob that fetus, less than 26 weeks old, of the right to live?
 
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Mandevar

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FSTDT said:
Particularly, 26 weeks the threshhold for pain, but I feel its justifiable to draw a 2 week safety net around that time to compensate for fetuses who develop faster than others. Right now, this timeframe is roughly equivalent to our current abortion laws.

You honestly feel nothing wrong with your belief that a growing fetus has no moral value one second but in another second it does? Simply based on utiltarian measurement?

You are really starting to scare me.... you speak as if it would be morally acceptable for women to have multiple abortions as a means of birth control if they suffered no health problems... so do you not object to women using abortion as a means of birth control, morally? Because the fetus has no moral value? So a fetus (before 26 weeks) has how much moral value, to what degree? It appears its none to you if it doesnt even deserve to live.

FSTDT said:
Before everyone jumps all over me saying that its a life, I agree. It is a life. But, it just doesn't have any moral value. Killing living things is not wrong in itself, otherwise eating plants and disinfecting countertops would be as morally wrong as murder of an adult human; its not wrong to kill plants because they cannot suffer or want anything at all. This clearly implies that its not the fact that something is alive that matters morally, its the experiences; and the reason why we protect the continued existence of life is to protect the experiences. However, I do not believe an unborn fetus has any experiences at all, so I'm not convinced there is anything being protected by criminalizing abortion.

And I understand that an unborn fetus is a human life, but I don't believe being a member of human species matters any more than being a member of the cat species or snails species. Species membership is not a moral quality, but rather the experiences of an organism matter morally.

You are equating a POTENTIAL human LIFE with a plant or bacteria... a plant will never be ABLE to grow into a being that can experience pleasure and pain, it will never be able to be of any moral value.

Simply because a fetus can not feel, I don't think it should have all of its moral value revoked. As far as I see it, a fetus is just a growing human life. A fetus is unable to have experiences, but still has the capacity to.
 
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