Moral or Immoral

[PsychoSarah]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

1. Creating people or just through the position of being a deity does not make god exempt from simple moral logic. If it is immoral for a human to do, it is immoral for a deity, especially one as powerful as the Christian ideal of god, whose omnipotence and omnipresence eliminates any need for suffering or misfortune in achieving its goals.

2. You can use direct bible quotes.

3. We are discussing the god of the bible, and how the being is described within. Personal ideals that are not stated within those pages are invalid for the sake of this exercise.

4. This is not a discussion on whether or not the being exists.

5. You can count Jesus and god as being the same being, or choose not to, but if you mention Jesus, you have to mention actions god did while not in a human body.

6. Claiming to be good doesn't make it so, this measure is based on actions, not words. Words in the bible attributed to god are to be ignored unless they contribute to an action, and to count as moral, that action must be moral as well.

7. You can only count the good actions of creations if you don't believe in free will, because if they have free will, those creations have an independent morality from god and thus their actions do not reflect upon how moral or immoral god is. The only exception is when god orders people to do certain things.

 

[bhsmte]

.

 

[juvenissun]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

Get it over once and for all:

Whatever said and done by God is defined as the only content of morality.
Otherwise, it is not a God (which invalided your OP).

 

[PsychoSarah]

Get it over once and for all:

Whatever said and done by God is defined as the only content of morality.
Otherwise, it is not a God (which invalided your OP).

The point is that you have to remove that from consideration. If you view the premise as invalid, then don't answer. This is breaking the rules of giving a valid answer, because you are using the title of god as a factor in determining morality.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

1. Creating people or just through the position of being a deity does not make god exempt from simple moral logic. If it is immoral for a human to do, it is immoral for a deity, especially one as powerful as the Christian ideal of god, whose omnipotence and omnipresence eliminates any need for suffering or misfortune in achieving its goals.

2. You can use direct bible quotes.

3. We are discussing the god of the bible, and how the being is described within. Personal ideals that are not stated within those pages are invalid for the sake of this exercise.

4. This is not a discussion on whether or not the being exists.

5. You can count Jesus and god as being the same being, or choose not to, but if you mention Jesus, you have to mention actions god did while not in a human body.

6. Claiming to be good doesn't make it so, this measure is based on actions, not words. Words in the bible attributed to god are to be ignored unless they contribute to an action, and to count as moral, that action must be moral as well.

7. You can only count the good actions of creations if you don't believe in free will, because if they have free will, those creations have an independent morality from god and thus their actions do not reflect upon how moral or immoral god is. The only exception is when god orders people to do certain things.

...but, do we have to assume the rules are valid? And could you lay out specifically what you mean by "simple moral logic?"

 

[PsychoSarah]

...but, do we have to assume the rules are valid? And could you lay out specifically what you mean by "simple moral logic?"

Of course you have to assume the rules are valid. Why would I make them and demand that you follow them if that wasn't the case?

Simple logic: murder is bad, etc. Basically put, evaluate god as a person rather than as a deity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Of course you have to assume the rules are valid. Why would I make them and demand that you follow them if that wasn't the case?

Simple logic: murder is bad, etc. Basically put, evaluate god as a person rather than as a deity.

...if a god exists, why should I consider evaluating it in the same fashion as I would a fellow human being (person)? That makes little sense, Sarah. There's hardly any ontological parallel between the divine (if it exists) and earth-bound humans. You're questions seem to me to be an exercise in futility and conceptual obscurity.

Maybe I'm wrong, but th..... no, I'm not wrong on this.

 

[TillICollapse]

...if a god exists, why should I consider evaluating it in the same fashion as I would a fellow human being (person)? That makes little sense, Sarah. There's hardly any ontological parallel between the divine (if it exists) and earth-bound humans. You're questions seem to me to be an exercise in futility and conceptual obscurity.

Maybe I'm wrong, but th..... no, I'm not wrong on this.

Sorry to interject. I realize this is breaking the rules. But I would like to point something out:

Genesis 3:22:

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"

Apparently, according to Genesis 3, Yahweh Elohim said the man has now become like one of them, knowing good and evil. Seems like a parallel there between that "God" and humans, specifically in the area of "knowing good and evil, like them."

So perhaps use the idea you may know good and evil LIKE "God".

 

[RDKirk]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

1. Creating people or just through the position of being a deity does not make god exempt from simple moral logic.

Which "simple moral logic" are we using? Hedonism? Stoicism? Confucianism? Utilitarianism?

Can't really discuss the question logically unless you define the logical system you intend to use.

 

[RDKirk]

Of course you have to assume the rules are valid. Why would I make them and demand that you follow them if that wasn't the case?

Simple logic: murder is bad, etc. Basically put, evaluate god as a person rather than as a deity.

Sure, we all agree "murder is bad," but what is "murder?" Your definition by your "simple logical rules" or mine by my "simple logical rules?"

Have you ever read "The Cold Equations?" It's a version of the Lifeboat Dilemma. Does the protagonist commit murder or not? Is that the same judgment in every moral system?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sorry to interject. I realize this is breaking the rules. But I would like to point something out:

Genesis 3:22:

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"

Apparently, according to Genesis 3, Yahweh Elohim said the man has now become like one of them, knowing good and evil. Seems like a parallel there between that "God" and humans, specifically in the area of "knowing good and evil, like them."

So perhaps use the idea you may know good and evil LIKE "God".

...and (ahem!)...to what extent does the passage you've cited tell us that Adam and Eve became 'parallel' to God, i.e. LIKE God? If all we can say, based on the text, is that Adam and Eve began to have a few extra synaptic twitches regarding the discernment of Good and Evil, this hardly qualifies them as having become ontologically parallel to God.

2PhiloVoid

 

[PsychoSarah]

Which "simple moral logic" are we using? Hedonism? Stoicism? Confucianism? Utilitarianism?

Can't really discuss the question logically unless you define the logical system you intend to use.

Oh my, just use morality as you view it, keep things simple here.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No, enough, all of you stop talking to each other, if you have a problem with my OP, either PM me, or just don't respond. No more responding to each other, enough. no more, you are derailing.

 

[RDKirk]

Oh my, just use morality as you view it, keep things simple here.

Well, then, Divine Command deontology...He's all good.

 

[TillICollapse]

No, enough, all of you stop talking to each other, if you have a problem with my OP, either PM me, or just don't respond. No more responding to each other, enough. no more, you are derailing.

Sorry :/

 

[quatona]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

He appears to be a mixed bag, like all of us.

 

[durangodawood]

Its impossible for me to tell.

I dont know enough of the context of the times, in which morality is situated.

 

[Mediate]

Using the following rules, individually come to the conclusion of whether or not the god of the bible is a moral being, or if the claims of goodness are empty words. You must follow these rules, and no one is to comment on the answers that other people give, this is an individual exercise.

1. Creating people or just through the position of being a deity does not make god exempt from simple moral logic. If it is immoral for a human to do, it is immoral for a deity, especially one as powerful as the Christian ideal of god, whose omnipotence and omnipresence eliminates any need for suffering or misfortune in achieving its goals.

It is immoral for people to burn their children, as God attests to in the book of Judges, when he tells the King " I told them [in Gehinnom] to do none of these things [burning their children]".

Thus, if your idea of God is a God who burns his creations in hell (the word translated from the word ''Gehinnom'' in the New Testament), then your God is immoral by his own standards.