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Fair enough. Just comes across in the same spirit as that which you are judging, kinda made me raise my eyebrows and say "yikes!"
Um... No.
Um... No.
Not one you are able to accept.
YepThen I suppose you must have the same reaction to Paul when he calls people dogs and heretics.
I have no answer you are willing to accept.
I have no answer you are willing to accept.
So, you have nothing. Got it.
So, you have nothing. Got it.
That's a problem, friend.
But, looks like "my work here is done."
Good night God bless, folks!
Of course, you realize (I hope) that I could apply that pursuit to anything, whether your creed or anyone else's—even the Christian faith itself. However, we know that the Christian faith is defined by Scripture and that anything that does not conform to Scripture is by definition not Christian, and that, therefore, not everyone who claims the name Christian is actually Christian (Matthew 7:21-23).
In the same way, anything that does not conform to the Reformed confessional standards is by definition not Reformed. These standards cover both doctrine and practice in the confessional statements and catechisms, respectively. Anything—doctrine, behavior, or otherwise—which does not conform to these standards is by definition not Reformed. Otherwise, words mean nothing. Of course, I am no fool: I can gather the reason you would wish it to be otherwise, because it allows you conveniently to commit both the association and ad hominem fallacies by associating Westboro Baptist with Reformed theology (even if they were saints, they still are not Reformed; they are Baptist). However, I will not allow you to do that.
Reformed theology is defined by the Reformed confessional standards—period.
It's very difficult to argue with straw men.
Like your perception that strawman are being thrown at you, this conclusion isn't based on anything I actually said. The point made was that the Westboros hold to the same 5-Points of Calvinism as you do and also agree with Article 10 of the Canons of Dort about election. Unless you're proposing that salvation is by works not Faith, the Westboro's behavior, good or bad, is something they must answer for at the judgment seat of Christ - and I simply don't understand how you can justify making a salvational issue out of their proclaiming the exact same limited gospel as you believe simply because they do so in such a blunt and unapologetic way. My experience with them is that they believe that the hatred of God towards the non-elect is an integral part of the gospel message and they feel obligated to proclaim it - ironically, they regard Calvinists who preach the Arminian gospel to others (instead of the limited gospel they actually believe) are the counterfeit Christians!I beg to differ. Claiming that my theology leads to Westboro behavior is purely heated rhetoric.
What I got is that you exist theologically on some island called 'reformed theology island', and you will accept no Christian concept that does not fit, or has not been approved to fit, on your island. Have fun on your island. The rest of us are exploring far greater lands.
I guess I should start calling people heretics and dogs, appreciate the advice
Let's see, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other early Protestants were not Reformed according to your standards. The Reformed confessional standards, as you put it, were not around.
The point made was that the Westboros hold to the same 5-Points of Calvinism as you do and also agree with Article 10 of the Canons of Dort about election.
My experience with them is that they believe that the hatred of God towards the non-elect is an integral part of the gospel message and they feel obligated to proclaim it - ironically, they regard Calvinists who preach the Arminian gospel to others (instead of the limited gospel they actually believe) are the counterfeit Christians!
Unless you're proposing that salvation is by works not Faith, the Westboro's behavior, good or bad, is something they must answer for at the judgment seat of Christ - and I simply don't understand how you can justify making a salvational issue out of their proclaiming the exact same limited gospel as you believe simply because they do so in such a blunt and unapologetic way.
I neither said that or implied it - this is the only straw man in the conversation, and it belongs to you. What I simply said was that the Westboros believe the same TULIP doctrines and have the same limited gospel as you but they don't hide their belief that God hates the non-elect who He has chosen for destruction.You say that Calvinistic doctrine leads to Westboro behavior.
I've referred to it several times: Here's the quote from the Canons of Dort regarding election which uses Rom9:11-13 to assert that election isn't based on works while adding that the elect are loved while the non-elect are hated:Cite me just one place (just one, singular instance) anywhere in the Reformed confessions where God is said to hate the non-elect.
You've condemned the Westboros for bluntly promoting what they consider to be the full gospel based on the exact same scriptures and Canon which you also adhere to which states that God loves the elect and hates the non-elect. It appears that you're condemning them for their brash, unapologetic style - a behavior that Paul doesn't include in any of his lists.I can do so because Paul himself—the Preacher of Grace himself—does so on numerous occasions. Have you never read where he lays down unequivocally that people who behave in a certain way will not inherit God's kingdom? Certainly you would not accuse him of believing in salvation by works!
I neither said that or implied it
What I simply said was that the Westboros believe the same TULIP doctrines and have the same limited gospel as you but they don't hide their belief that God hates the non-elect who He has chosen for destruction.
I've referred to it several times: Here's the quote from the Canons of Dort regarding election which uses Rom9:11-13 to assert that election isn't based on works while adding that the elect are loved while the non-elect are hated:
"Article 10: Election Based on God’s Good Pleasure
But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve God’s choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as God’s own possession. As Scripture says, “When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad . . . , she (Rebecca) was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’” (Rom. 9:11-13)."
You've condemned the Westboros for bluntly promoting what they consider to be the full gospel based on the exact same scriptures and Canon which you also adhere to which states that God loves the elect and hates the non-elect. It appears that you're condemning them for their brash, unapologetic style - a behavior that Paul doesn't include in any of his lists.
Obviously any belief system we may consider is NOT expressed and explained the same by everyone we may put in that category.What are your thoughts on Molinism?..........................
That's an illogical non sequitur. It's like if I said "After Mother Theresa read the book of Acts she became a missionary" and you respond "You're saying that everyone who reads Acts will feel led to be a missionary." Totally illogical and nothing but a straw man to distract from the issue you were confronted about ie, your unjustified condemnation of the Westboro's for their own particular response to believing TULIP's limited atonement and/or any of the Calvinist confessions. You obviously have the same opinion of many Calvinists such as Spurgeon, who thought the doctrines of Predestination and Election should remain a "family secret" because it just confuses new believers and antagonizes unbelievers. The Westboros instead believe that God's hatred of the non-elect is an integral part of the Calvinist gospel and shouldn't be hidden from anyone.When you say that they believe what I believe, yet do not limit themselves in any way regarding the proclamation of their true Calvinistic beliefs, you are saying quite directly that their Calvinistic beliefs lead to that behavior.
No, it's not clear to you yet - you're still in denial about your inconsistencies. Whether any scriptures are being interpreted correctly isn't what's being discussed right now. The issue is that both you and the Westboros interpret the scriptures/confessionals the same way but you pronounced them not to even be Christians and condemned them simply on the basis of the blunt and open manner in which they proclaim your commonly shared beliefs. Previously, you also pronounced 4-point Amyraldians who affirm the Canons of Dort as nothing but "liars" but then later, to justify your condemnation of the Westboros, proclaimed that salvation is not by Faith alone but also "works of piety" - thereby denying one or more points yourself!Ah, so it's Scripture you have a problem with, not the confessions! The problem is becoming clear now.
For one, they boldly proclaim the limited gospel which they believe to be true without regard to the great hostility they encounter. And contrary to your allegation that they engage in violence, that's completely untrue and they take great care not to admit anyone into their fellowship who does advocate violence against others. I actually have more respect for them than most Calvinists because of their open and unapologetic commitment to what they believe to be the truth. And because of that sincerity to follow the truth, on several occasions I've had some success in leading a few out by showing them some of Calvin's misinterpretations of scripture.Can you honestly look at Westboro and believe that they are actually obeying Scripture in their behavior?
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