Has anyone read Wendy Shalit's "A Return to Modesty: Rediscovering a Lost Virtue"? Any thoughts?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Modesty
- Thread starter sculpturegirl
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feral
Dostoyevsky was right
I have not read the book, no, though I may now that I've heard of it. I do favour a return to modesty. Although I don't think it's 'sinful' to display one's body or wear revealing clothes, I do think that it usually cheapens one's appearence and is disrespectful to the self. Wearing a bikini at the beach or a short dress for a special evening is fine, but I don't have a lot of respect for people who are desperately trying to look sexy every minute of every day. I like to see people dressing in ways that flatter their appearence without turning them into a sex object or detracting from the other aspects of who they are. I see lots of teen girls wearing clothes that have sexy, flirtatious messages on them, and it makes me really sad, because who is ever going to take that girl seriously or want to seek empowerment for her?
The attitude of modesty is a good thing as well. The culture has gotten way oversaturated with sex, and I have a lot of respect for people who don't concentrate on it and who show some self-respect by not being sex crazed or demeaning to themselves.
The attitude of modesty is a good thing as well. The culture has gotten way oversaturated with sex, and I have a lot of respect for people who don't concentrate on it and who show some self-respect by not being sex crazed or demeaning to themselves.
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morningstar2651
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A woman once came to my high school and spoke to the entire school about modesty.
She called all the girls harlots & refused to shake the hand of any male because she "didn't know where it had been".
Needless to say, she wasn't invited a second time.
She called all the girls harlots & refused to shake the hand of any male because she "didn't know where it had been".
Needless to say, she wasn't invited a second time.
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modesty is sexist, why would it be a virtue? why not let people dress how they want to dress?
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I don't so much know about that, I'd rather deal with a genius who knowingly understates their abilities than some arrogant high and mighty mortal. But, in fairness, that is primarily my opinion and people should be free to do as they wish without having to worry what I think.
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feral said:
That's the point, empowerment is allowing people to wear what they want. Nobody cares if guys wear strange clothing, or muscle shirts which show off their arms.
Why should it matter with women?
The reason why people are so sex-crazed is because people make such a big deal out of it. If nobody cared, we wouldn't be in such a sex craze.
Just look at the Taliban, if a woman showed her ankle, people would go crazy over it. It's all relative.
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I have read the book and as I understood it, Shalit simply points out that modesty is an affirmation of a woman's right to make boundaries. I believe that my body, my time, and my affection are of great value and modern society expects women to dish too much out for too little in return. I shouldn't have to dress sexy just to get attention from men, or kiss someone just because they took me out to dinner, or sleep with someone just because they said "I love you."
It's not about telling other people how to be or how to dress but of SUPPORTING their right to make such boundaries for themselves. They are not suppressed, hung-up, stuck-up or frigid - they're empowered.
It's not about telling other people how to be or how to dress but of SUPPORTING their right to make such boundaries for themselves. They are not suppressed, hung-up, stuck-up or frigid - they're empowered.
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Norea
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The biggest problem is that the concept of modesty isn't just in what you wear and how you wear it. In some etiquitte books, modesty is a mindset with regard to how one acts around others. So essentially you can be 'modest' even if you're completely naked. But even mental modesty I don't approve of on the grounds that modesty cheapens your company[friends, family and etc]. If you can't be honest with someone about yourself then there's a problem. Modesty to me is the antithesis of a virtue, it states the self is either inferior to others or that others are inferior to self. And that to me is a form of moral deprivation.
-- Bridget
-- Bridget
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Modesty is not reserved for one gender. If it were, why do we never see male nudity on TV?
Thank you Grace for summing up Shalit's book so well! Modesty is much more than wearing a burqa.
Thank you Grace for summing up Shalit's book so well! Modesty is much more than wearing a burqa.
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xtxArchxAngelxtx
Peace Keeper
...
So let me just say that we are what we advertise. Never judge a book by it's cover, however, it is the authors fault for having a faulty or bad cover since he knows many people only judge by the cover.
If I see a girl in a short tight skirt, low cut tight shirt showing off her stomach, I will think a few things, and I am NOT afraid of telling them.
1. She is trying to get guys attention in a sexual way, and she is whether thats her intentions or not. If she does not realize this, she is either ignorant, naive, or a pathalogical liar.
2. She is showing off her good looks. One can be VERY VERY attractive without showing skin. My g/f is a perfect example.
3. The girl is probably in secure with her physical appeal and what people think of her.
4. I would probably think that hanging out with her is unhealthy for me because of reason one and two.
And it is the same thing with guys as well, it jsut happens to be more of an issue with girls.
Often I hear from girls "but it shouldn't make a difference-- it's not my fault guys are perverts"
My response is this: Like with my book cover annallogy. If you want a guy who is not so sexual and isn't all about sex, then don't advertise that way. Believe it or not, girls who dress showing a great deal of skin end up attracting guys who in which "skin" is their main priority.
Oh yeah, here is another great one I hear alot "But this dress is SOOOO cute!" Is the dress cute, or do you think it'll be cute only once you are in it showing 90% of your legs....
Of course not all girls are like this nor think like this. I have no problems with girls "looking pretty" every now and then. However, in a school, in a public area doing public things in a casual setting as oppossed to a night out with a boyfriend, something special, is a big difference.
Girls: How often do you find a guy you like and try to get him to like by looking more attractive?
Here is a christian guys prospective: The more more modest, the more attractive you are. I don't want a girl who trys to sell her body, I want a girl who hides it simply because she knows it is something most guys (including myself) struggle with. My g/f knows this, and I love her for it (amongst other many other things).
So let me just say that we are what we advertise. Never judge a book by it's cover, however, it is the authors fault for having a faulty or bad cover since he knows many people only judge by the cover.
If I see a girl in a short tight skirt, low cut tight shirt showing off her stomach, I will think a few things, and I am NOT afraid of telling them.
1. She is trying to get guys attention in a sexual way, and she is whether thats her intentions or not. If she does not realize this, she is either ignorant, naive, or a pathalogical liar.
2. She is showing off her good looks. One can be VERY VERY attractive without showing skin. My g/f is a perfect example.
3. The girl is probably in secure with her physical appeal and what people think of her.
4. I would probably think that hanging out with her is unhealthy for me because of reason one and two.
And it is the same thing with guys as well, it jsut happens to be more of an issue with girls.
Often I hear from girls "but it shouldn't make a difference-- it's not my fault guys are perverts"
My response is this: Like with my book cover annallogy. If you want a guy who is not so sexual and isn't all about sex, then don't advertise that way. Believe it or not, girls who dress showing a great deal of skin end up attracting guys who in which "skin" is their main priority.
Oh yeah, here is another great one I hear alot "But this dress is SOOOO cute!" Is the dress cute, or do you think it'll be cute only once you are in it showing 90% of your legs....
Of course not all girls are like this nor think like this. I have no problems with girls "looking pretty" every now and then. However, in a school, in a public area doing public things in a casual setting as oppossed to a night out with a boyfriend, something special, is a big difference.
Girls: How often do you find a guy you like and try to get him to like by looking more attractive?
Here is a christian guys prospective: The more more modest, the more attractive you are. I don't want a girl who trys to sell her body, I want a girl who hides it simply because she knows it is something most guys (including myself) struggle with. My g/f knows this, and I love her for it (amongst other many other things).
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Most of the opinions I have read in this thread only talk about how modesty effects themselves in regards to personal empowerment, having the freedom to dress how they please, not being a victims of discrimination, etc., but what about how we affect others? Does this even matter to us, or are we only concerned with how our clothing makes us feel? I think we should try to be part of a greater community by looking beyond our own needs and, at least for a minute, consider the needs of others.
Personally I have a need to not have skimpy women parade in front of me. I know I have my own battle to resist temptation, but it should be obvious that if a woman is wearing very sexy clothes it makes this harder for me. I am very vulnerable to these temptations--I admit this is a weakness for me. I'm just saying out of kindess or sensitivity it would be wonderful to think how your dress makes others feel. Sometimes it could embarrass people, injure people spiritually, repulse people in some cases. Why not be sensitive?
Basil
Personally I have a need to not have skimpy women parade in front of me. I know I have my own battle to resist temptation, but it should be obvious that if a woman is wearing very sexy clothes it makes this harder for me. I am very vulnerable to these temptations--I admit this is a weakness for me. I'm just saying out of kindess or sensitivity it would be wonderful to think how your dress makes others feel. Sometimes it could embarrass people, injure people spiritually, repulse people in some cases. Why not be sensitive?
Basil
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I have nothing against females either--part of me would love to recommend they walk around in almost nothing and have us males follow them around dazed doing anything they ask. . . but how healthy would that be for any of us?
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(joke)
*rolling my eyes* Sexism is you cannot do X because as a woman, you are inferior. Men and women are different and men respond to sexy clothes. How often do you go crazy over a man in a tank top?MoodyBlue said:
I think that he has some good points and is very very honest about how he feels.
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mpshiel
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To the guys who read "provocative" into what a girl is wearing: that's your issue, stop trying to make it thiers.
And if you don't believe me, do you feel the same way when you see 8, 9, 11 or 14 year olds dressed the same way (I know I sure do - short jean skirt, boots)? I am guessing not. So no, it's not the clothes or the amount of skin but your reaction to them.
And no, the world does not revolve around guys. There is a difference between "I look good in this" and "This will make a guy's hormones go insane thus I look good in it"
But next time I can find some clothes that make my butt look bigger than it is, my skin look older, my breasts flatter or saggier, and my hips non-existant - I will be sure to post it on here so any who feel that there is no difference between self esteem and self appeal will have something to wear or recommend to those who are causing them to be filled with lust.
And if you don't believe me, do you feel the same way when you see 8, 9, 11 or 14 year olds dressed the same way (I know I sure do - short jean skirt, boots)? I am guessing not. So no, it's not the clothes or the amount of skin but your reaction to them.
And no, the world does not revolve around guys. There is a difference between "I look good in this" and "This will make a guy's hormones go insane thus I look good in it"
But next time I can find some clothes that make my butt look bigger than it is, my skin look older, my breasts flatter or saggier, and my hips non-existant - I will be sure to post it on here so any who feel that there is no difference between self esteem and self appeal will have something to wear or recommend to those who are causing them to be filled with lust.
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