Modesty in dress and in speech

JJB · Oct 27, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
Does this clear up some of the questions? This is the unconverted's view of modesty. . .why should so many Christians have problems with it. . .

I thought number three would fit quite well in the discussion. Do we discard every definition because it is society's definition, and perhaps was defined by a nonChristian? Then how in the world would we communicate with one another?

In your view, what are the problems Christians are having with "it"? In this thread, I haven't seen a Christian say we should be immodest.....

Erinwilcox · Oct 27, 2005

No, I don't think that any Christian in their right mind would say that we should be immodest. But, I know that while they say that they are practicing immodesty. Most of the girls in my church claim to be Christians (I think), but yet they go around in halter tops, belly shirts (sometimes), hiphugging jeans, shirts with scooping necklines, skimpy skirts, extremly short shorts, etc. On top of all this, they are constantly flirting with the boys. Now listen closely. I think that modesty deals with this too. Whenever we want to play an innocent game of co-ed soccer, certain girls (a pastor's daughter included) always INSIST that we play tackle soccer. When the boys agree, saying that only boys will be tackled, these girls say (including the pastor's daughter) "Oh no!!!!!!! We WANT you to tackle us!" Why would a good Christian girl insist on being tackled by boys (especially ones twice her size)?!?!? Don't you think that their fathers should know what they are doing? My father always taught me that full contact sports with boys was taboo. After all, I wouldn't just let them come up and touch me wherever they wanted too, who knows where they might touch me if tackling. . . But, these fathers seem to give their daughters free reign to do anything! Most, if not all, of these girls have no fruit in their lives, but I still think that their fathers, as Christians, should guide their daughters in the modesty issue. So, while none of them would say that we should be immodest, they fail to put any effort into being modest. Rather, they let their daughters wear what they want, even to church. Believe me, some of the things that they wear to church. . .

JJB · Oct 27, 2005

Ok, I see. I thought you had complaints against people in the thread. Now, I see you are dealing with real life situations, not internet threads.

When I was a teen, I was modest. I was very uncomfortable with any males looking at me in what I felt was an inappropriate manner. Why are other girls different? Maybe they're too influenced by the world -- haven't grown enough in their Christian faith. It's hard to be the one who is "different". I imagine now days girls who are modest are called names like "prude" and the like, even from Christians.

Maybe the issue should be addressed through a bible study or sunday school class. Can you talk to somebody about it, Erin?

Erinwilcox · Oct 27, 2005

Well, not really. My parents and some few others in our church are very grieved by the lack of modesty in our pews and out of them. However, since we are the really conservative faction of the church (and very few in number) and our pastors don't exactly see eye to eye with us, there's really nothing that we can do except pray. Modesty has been addressed before from the pulpit, but that was several years ago. After that message, there was a change for about a week or two. . .but anyhow, our church has grown slightly more liberal since then (and is still) and it seems that everyone is worried about offending the young people and "scaring" them away; therefore, things seem to be catered to making them feel more comfortable. Besides, if we did a girl's Bible study on it, either they wouldn't come (cause there wouldn't be any boys or because I'm very unpopular with the youth in my church) or even if they did, certain girls have learned to "talk the talk" and can fool certain people (their parents included) into thinking that they want to do the right thing. But they only talkl the talk when they need to-once they don't, they go right back to whatever they said or did before.

Paleoconservatarian · Oct 27, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
Besides, if we did a girl's Bible study on it, either they wouldn't come (cause there wouldn't be any boys or because I'm very unpopular with the youth in my church) or even if they did, certain girls have learned to "talk the talk" and can fool certain people (their parents included) into thinking that they want to do the right thing.

I can relate to that. That's one reason I stopped going to youth group a long time ago. I usually get along better with adults than with folks my age. Always been that way. Adults at church, high school teachers, college professors.

Modesty issues aren't restricted to girls, either. I have problems with the immodest actions and even dress of guys my age. And the reason many girls dress immodestly is so that they can impress us. We shouldn't give 'em such a reason.

StAnselm · Oct 27, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
it seems that everyone is worried about offending the young people and "scaring" them away; therefore, things seem to be catered to making them feel more comfortable.

This is a big problem, in all sorts of churches...

I'm very unpopular with the youth in my church.

JJB · Oct 27, 2005

There are times when all we can do is what God calls us to do. It is our job to be obedient to Him. Jesus never said it would be easy to walk with Him, but it is rewarding. It is sad, and I concur, that immodesty seems to be the style of many young people.

PuritanLady · Oct 28, 2005

It's nice to find more REFORMED ppl in line on the modesty issue. I typically get mistaken for Charity, Mennonite, IFB, Quaker, and Pentacostal...because ppl associate modesty and headcovering with them. I think it's a shame that so many reformed folk have gone so far...but it's nice to see a faction making an impact.

In one of the churches we attended, the immodest girls actually were drawn to me. I would give honest opinions when asked, but I didn't look down on them as the rest of the church did. However, by my dress, I had a girl come to me later and tell me that she at one time just wore whatever was the latest. But after being in the church for awhile, she was observing those of us that dressed modestly and it got her to thinking. She still finds fashionable clothing, but she is careful of what she's revealing now.

For the one that stated that it was a cultural thing and not clear cut: Scripture does give us some guidelines. It is noted in the OT that the thighs are considered part of ones nakedness...the thighs start just above the knee. Women are not to dress as men or men as women.

Erinwilcox · Oct 28, 2005

Paleoconservatarian said:
I can relate to that. That's one reason I stopped going to youth group a long time ago. I usually get along better with adults than with folks my age. Always been that way. Adults at church, high school teachers, college professors.

I think that it may have something to do with the fact that non-Christian youth view the Christian youth (especially the Calvinist/Reformed/Conservative youth) with distaste because their parents hold us up as a standard. I know that in many of the homes (I'm not bragging, just giving facts that were told to my parents) of these unconverted, immodest girls, my sister and I are held up as a standard/model. Not the best thing for making friends with the kids, better for making friends with the parents. I think it makes the kids feel threatened.

erin74 · Oct 29, 2005

Perhaps you should train to be a youth group leader so that you can at least influence the next group of girls that come through.

And be open to talk to anyone who is willing to chat through it. Be careful not to do it in a judgemental way. I find guilt is not a good motivator, and nor is judging - cause they just get their back up and get worse if anything. Try and speak the truth boldly and gently - if you do it in an encouraging way then people want to change. They want to work at doing the right thing.

I know where you are coming from though.....

We once had a weekend away and during the weekend split into a girls group and a guys group. Each group had a leader who asked what the other group does that is unhelpful in the area of sexuality, etc. Then the leaders swapped. So the male leader was able to say to the girls - the guys find it unhelpful when you wear x y and z. And visa versa. It was an interesting exercise and helped some. There will always be those who don't hear. I will forever hear the refrain of one girl "but I love my mid-drift tops" - perhaps more than she loved the guys godliness that's for sure.

erin74 · Oct 29, 2005

Actually I was thinking on this over dinner.

If you are thinking that they may not be saved it is not all together surprising that they have no desire to be modest, or follow any other biblical teaching. Why would somebody who does not understand what God has done for them have any desire to follow his commands and guides. Why would they want to live in his world his way if they don't know all that he has done for them.

Perhaps this is the issue you really need to start praying and chatting to them about.

StAnselm · Oct 29, 2005

erin74 said:
Perhaps this is the issue you really need to start praying and chatting to them about.

Excellent point!

Erinwilcox · Oct 29, 2005

Except that they don't want to chat. Anytime I even approach the "group" I get dirty looks from the girls. . .if I join in anyway, they still find ways to freeze me out.

erin74 · Oct 30, 2005

pray pray and pray

and look for opportunities to talk to them on their own.

edie19 · Oct 30, 2005

erin74 said:
pray pray and pray

and look for opportunities to talk to them on their own.

I agree - a one on one approach would likely be more effective. With a clique there's more of a tendency to demean someone if they're all together. But individually the members of the clique can actually be quite pleasant. They're afraid of being thought "different" by the members of the group.

JJB · Oct 30, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
Except that they don't want to chat. Anytime I even approach the "group" I get dirty looks from the girls. . .if I join in anyway, they still find ways to freeze me out.

Erin, you are probably challenging them because you don't do the same thing as they do. Is there one girl within the group who is less hostile to you? One girl who will smile at you? Approach her alone, outside of the group, if you have the chance. Divide and conquer!

If you can makes friends with just one, perhaps she'll be the door for you to open up the group. Be patient and pray. Wait on God's timing.

Erinwilcox · Oct 31, 2005

I was wondering what you all think about mixed swimming (men and women together). I think that it is okay as long as we all attempt to be modest. My family has a pool and a boat. Our rules, when we have guests, are that we'd prefer if the males would put on a shirt and if the females would wear shorts and a t-shirt over their bathing suits. I have worn shorts and an athletic tank (cause it dries faster, like a bathing suit) over my bathing suits for the past several years (since I became Reformed). When I am not wearing this, for example if we have some company, I might be found wearing the swim suits on the following website: http://swimmodest.com/. I have the navy suit, my sister the light blue, and my mother the black. We wore them regularly. Check it out and tell me what you think.

Paleoconservatarian · Oct 31, 2005

Erinwilcox said:
I was wondering what you all think about mixed swimming (men and women together). I think that it is okay as long as we all attempt to be modest. My family has a pool and a boat. Our rules, when we have guests, are that we'd prefer if the males would put on a shirt and if the females would wear shorts and a t-shirt over their bathing suits. I have worn shorts and an athletic tank (cause it dries faster, like a bathing suit) over my bathing suits for the past several years (since I became Reformed). When I am not wearing this, for example if we have some company, I might be found wearing the swim suits on the following website: http://swimmodest.com/. I have the navy suit, my sister the light blue, and my mother the black. We wore them regularly. Check it out and tell me what you think.

Actually, I'm against swimming. Period. It's just not my thing. Swimming's for emergencies. You know, in case you're going to drown, or fall out of a boat or something. It's not fun.

I'm not sure about mixed swimming. I guess it depends on the company. Apart from swimming lessons as a kid, the only times I've ever gone swimming was with family.

Erinwilcox · Oct 31, 2005

Okay, but what about the rules and adult supervision? We often have families over in the summer and we all go swimming together-my family (parents included) and the others. The men and boys all wear shirts and the women and girls all wear shorts and a t-shirt. It gets incredibly hot and humid in Maryland during the summer. Also, I can't imagine not boating. . .diving off of the boat into crystal clear water, having my dad pull me in a tube at 30 mph and trying to flip me. . .it's really something that we do to have family time. It gets us away from the tv in the summer!

lmnop9876 · Oct 31, 2005

Okay, but what about the rules and adult supervision? We often have families over in the summer and we all go swimming together-my family (parents included) and the others. The men and boys all wear shirts and the women and girls all wear shorts and a t-shirt. It gets incredibly hot and humid in Maryland during the summer. Also, I can't imagine not boating. . .diving off of the boat into crystal clear water, having my dad pull me in a tube at 30 mph and trying to flip me. . .it's really something that we do to have family time. It gets us away from the tv in the summer!

swimming is 100% awesome. there is no place in the world like the beach.
the swimmodest site? quite bizarre swimming in a skirt, i must say. lol. wouldn't it be easier to wear a singlet and board shorts??
although the guys shirt looks alright, the water's absolutely freezing down here, even in summer. (not in most of australia, just where i am)

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