Modesty, Doctors and Exams

[highflyer]

Women undertake medical examinations on a regular basis that if they occured in a public arena would be mortifying. To be blunt, they are examined, often invasively from head to toe, usually by a male doctor. Now I will say immediately that I have little to no argument against gynecology or the obstetricians. It is impossible to imagine lusting in those conditions, unless a doctor is completely perverse. It is more the breast examinations that I believe undermine women's modesty on a colossal scale.

1) I hear your first complaint. But wait, you cry, women need this exam to screen for breast cancer. I agree completely, but they do not require a male doctor. Moreover, women often are pressured into unnecessary examinations by male doctors that are recognised to have no additional health benefits. Ever heard of TUBE? Google it. (Hmm, apologies, that doesn't work, try this google search
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...totally+unnecessary+breast+exam&start=10&sa=N

2) 'No fear', I hear you riposte angrily, 'doctors are highly trained, they have seen it all before, stop being immature'. Sigh. If it were only so. Take this example, one of many you would find if you looked into the issue,

'I worked at the Medical Board for a few years...the bottom line - some male doctors enjoy the power and control, access and opportunity over female patients.
Some don't step over the line, others conduct the exam with maximum exposure, others put pressure on women to have cervical screening and breast exams when they present for an earache or cold (A Dr may inform and provide information, but it is never permissible for a Dr to pressure, intimidate or bully a women into an exam or test - she is free to say NO...)
There are also the Doctors that conduct totally unnecessary exams or engage in improper conduct - it's usually unnecessary breast and pelvic exams which basically gives him access to the woman's entire body & blatant assaults & rape.
A male dermatologist was recently convicted and imprisoned in Australia for the digital rape of several patients while he was conducting skin checks. You'd think you were safe with a skin specialist...
IMO it's not really safe to see a male doctor for anything, unless you're prepared to stand up for yourself and end the consult if need be...
The power dynamic between male doctor and female patient makes it difficult for young and shy women to refuse improper and unnecessary requests.
I can tell you the scars that remain after sexual assault last a lifetime

- Deborah'

3) The final argument you might muster to your defence is also a familiar one. 'This may happen, but you are just as vulnerable to a female doctor, if they are not heterosexual.' This is true, but let's be realistic. Whilst a small proportion of female doctors are lesbians that would also cross the line, a vastly greater proportion of male doctors are heterosexual. Therefore, if your aim is to avoid such situations, there is just no comparison.

The fact is, men lust. Even the most trained doctors do so. Therefore if, like me, you are Christian, this should be even more troubling. Not just for the lady that is being, essentially, sexually assaulted, but for the doctors we require to perform these examinations.

In emergencies, of course, the normal rules do not apply. That is a given. But in the sort of situations outlined above, that occur by the thousand every day, I believe there is a huge problem, with implications which range from sexual assault and a woman's self-esteem to not causing one's 'brother to stumble'.

This topic is rarely thoroughly discussed. The discussions I have read elsewhere often degenerate into immaturity, ad hominem or wilful ignorance. Let's hope we can avoid that and get to some real answers, even if we don't like them.

 

[b&wpac4]

I mean no offense, but why do you suppose doctors taking advantage of their clients to be more of a Christian issue than an everybody issue? I am not a Christian but I certainly find it quite appalling and any doctor who takes advantage of patients needs to have their medical license revoked. I can tell you I'd be questioning my girlfriend's doctor if she went in for a cold and he wanted to check her breasts.

 

[highflyer]

It's absolutely an everybody issue. I welcome thoughts from anyone and apologize if I gave the impression that it was solely a Christian issue.

I meant more that my language of 'lust' and 'sanctity' would not be shared or welcomed by all.

 

[gwenmead]

It seems you are asserting that male doctors should not give female patients breast exams because they might lust after their patients. Is that correct?

 

[bliz]

highflyer -

I think that this is a totally inapproporiate discussion for young men. You must think you have discovered a way to legimatly discuss women's bodies. Well, you haven't. It's skanky and slimey.

 

[b&wpac4]

highflyer -

I think that this is a totally inapproporiate discussion for young men. You must think you have discovered a way to legimatly discuss women's bodies. Well, you haven't. It's skanky and slimey.

Well, for my part, I'm just saying that any doctor that takes advantage of any patients needs to have their license revoked.

 

[highflyer]

Gwenmead: That is one part of what I said, from quite a long post. That need not be its only function; women might not have been aware of the extent of this issue. I do not profess to know the precise remedy for this, even if I have strong opinions, though that does not stop me being very aware of the problem.

 

[highflyer]

Bliz: I am talking about it in completely generic terms. I find the actual practice far more 'skanky' than a discussion of it. Read some of the doctors forums where junior doctors discuss this and remember these are the people performing this activity in the real world. Nevertheless, if I have crossed the line at some point I apologize, that was not at all my intention.

 

[savvy]

I've only been to a female gyno, who totally violated my patient confidentiality to third parties without permission. Doctors of either gender can cross ethical lines.

Generally speaking, if you are examined by a male gyno, a female nurse must be present to make sure you are treated with respect. My friends who see male doctors have always felt very comfortable with them (as comfortable as you can be, in that situation...) and have never had problems or felt violated.

If a male doctor wanted to do a breast exam for a cold, yeah, that would be a pretty big red flag. Doctors should be judged on a case by case basis. Yes, there are male doctors out there who will take advantage of female patients. Just as teachers can take advantage of students, or therapists over their patients. Those people should be disbarred and police reports filed if necessary.

But we shouldn't just assume that doctors will lust over patients, therefore shouldn't have access to them. Women can always decline to have exams done...nobody forces me to get pelvic or breast exams. We can choose to go to female doctors if we want.

 

[gwenmead]

If you can imagine male doctors lusting after their patients' breasts during an exam, why do you find the possibility of male gynecologists lusting after their female patients' genitalia "impossible to imagine"?

 

[tyciol]

I would trust the professionalism of a doctor and go and do this. As you have mentioned, with lesbians present, the sex of the doctor is really not a protectant. Instead, if you feel uncomfortable or if a doctor is doing something unnecessary then you can report them or file a complaint and go to see another doctor.

In the case of manual exam, this is also something which you can be taught to perform on yourself, or to have your spouse or family member assist with.

If you do not know or trust a doctor to perform it, there are alternatives such as a mammogram or other new technologies which as far as I know do not involve the hands-on probing that manual lumptesting does (although some are less comfortable with new tech due to its use of energies to analyze).

 

[highflyer]

savvy: I imagine the women that have suffered in this way did so through generally more convincing excuses that going there for colds. Obviously, most women would spot that instantly.

As for teachers, it’s very different. Teachers are rarely put into similar issues of modesty and examination, if ever. I would argue that these examinations aren’t just an everyday occurrence where a woman is vulnerable, as always, to some weirdo, but a uniquely vulnerable, exploitable situation.

gwenmead: My answer is contained within the quotation you extracted from, if you included the next few words.

tyciol: I see what you say but one of my points was that women might not report being exploited or being pressurized into an uncomfortable situation.

 

[r1nn]

Of course medical examiners sexually harassing women is wrong and a horrible thing, but I'm just wondering...

Where do you get your analysis that most women who take these examinations come from males and not females? And how do you get the idea that more males are heterosexual than females are lesbians?

Because I've had these sorts of examinations all by females, not males. Also, at least in my health insurance in the USA, women can usually request having a female as their examiner, and they can also request a chaperon if they are uncomfortable being alone with the examiner. I know this probably isn't true for everyone with health insurance, but I think you should keep that in mind in your argument that there are people who don't necessarily have males as their examiners.

 

[highflyer]

Well the more using female doctors the better, as I see it. Maybe the majority do see female doctors. Great. That still leaves a large minority who either get no choice but a male or acquiesce to one.

As to sexual harrassment being horrible, that's totally right. Therefore we should reduce its occurance if it is practical to do so. Not only do I believe there is an inherent risk with any male doctor and female patient, I think it would reduce sexual abuse instances if more female patients saw female doctors.

 

[gwenmead]

I did read the next few words. They make little sense to me.

Your posts seem to paint male doctors as sexual predators incapable of professionalism, and female patients as helpless victims incapable of enough sense to choose competent doctors, based on anecdotal reports of the actions of a few unethical practitioners. And why is "modesty" part of your argument?

What exactly are you trying to say? I'm not clear on what your argument actually is or why you brought it up. I welcome clarity, so that I may avoid putting words in your mouth.

 

[highflyer]

Professional and competent does not mean they are not human and subject to the same instinctual desires. I have friends who are training to be doctors; of course they are in it for the right reasons. I realize that modesty and lust are words that atheists might not choose but you'll just have to accept them as an expression of what I am trying to say.

You could find many, many examples of such breaches occuring, just by searching. I imagine if there was less embarrassment over the issue there would be more admission of the breaches in trust that do occur.

To simplify my argue, and therefore damage it, I would say this. I think society generally should be more aware of the possibility for abuse inherent in these medical examinations. I think women should explicitly be given the option a female doctor, unless there is an emergency. I also believe Christians need to examine the morality of the issue and satisfy themselves that lust is not being indirectly fostered in some circumstances.

 

[CCGirl]

I only had one uncomfortable moment with a male doctor. I was having an internal examination, and with his free hand he was rubbing my tummy, and told me that I had "a lovely pelvis". It made me feel weird.

I wasnt at all uncomfortable with the midwives I used, they were a lesbian couple.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

I am curious as to why you are limiting your questioning regarding modesty and lust solely to women and their doctors. What about men who visit the urologist or proctologist?

It appears that you, yourself, may have a preoccupation with women's breasts (of note, your OP which states you find it impossible to imagine lusting as an ob/gyn dr. unless doing a breast exam). Care to explain why you would attribute your own proclivities wholesale, across-the-board to other men - who unlike you may either be older than 21 and able to separate work from play, or who may find other things more appealing?

 

[b&wpac4]

I am curious as to why you are limiting your questioning regarding modesty and lust solely to women and their doctors. What about men who visit the urologist or proctologist?

It appears that you, yourself, may have a preoccupation with women's breasts (of note, your OP which states you find it impossible to imagine lusting as an ob/gyn dr. unless doing a breast exam). Care to explain why you would attribute your own proclivities wholesale, across-the-board to other men - who unlike you may either be older than 21 and able to separate work from play, or who may find other things more appealing?

Yes, exactly. Doctors in general taking advantage of patients in general is a bad situation. Now, personally, I don't believe this happens nearly as much as this is trying to portray.

 

[HighwayMan]

And how do you get the idea that more males are heterosexual than females are lesbians?

Because the human race would die out, otherwise?