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Modern secular morality and it's inability to be authoritative

Tranquil Bondservant

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Larniavc

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If the acceptability of your moral actions is determined by the society around you then you can't say that other people's moral stances are wrong…….
Yes you can. If someone does something that you think is wrong you can clearly say that they are wrong
In order to believe certain morals are correct then you need to have a reason as to why that’s the case, under naturalism or materialism,….

That’s not how people think though. We don’t ‘work it out’. The moral framework we work under is built up over time and is often completely irrational.

“You have no reason to be empathetic, you have no reason to survive or live, you have no inherent value.”

But this is simply untrue. We have evolved to experience empathy. Empathy forges social bonds which has a survival advantage. Had humans not evolved the capacity for empathy we would not be as successful as we are.
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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Yes you can. If someone does something that you think is wrong you can clearly say that they are wrong
Wrong according to what though? My point was that the basis of the disagreement within the secular worldview is entirely arbitrary and the person you disagree with is just as much in the right as you are
That’s not how people think though. We don’t ‘work it out’. The moral framework we work under is built up over time and is often completely irrational.
If you have no reason as to why your belief is true, you have no reason to hold your belief. Regardless of what it is.
But this is simply untrue. We have evolved to experience empathy. Empathy forges social bonds which has a survival advantage. Had humans not evolved the capacity for empathy we would not be as successful as we are.
You're assuming empathy to be good by assuming the truth of other moral stances like ascribing value to human life when you use the example of survival. You're assuming an inherent value to survival that's unable to be substantiated. Just like I mentioned in the OP. Also "agreements upon behaviour =/= why I should follow them".
 
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Larniavc

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Wrong according to what though? My point was that the basis of the disagreement within the secular worldview is entirely arbitrary and the person you disagree with is just as much in the right as you are
Wrong according to me. When it come to making moral decisions I am the final arbiter on the matter. By putting God as the final arbiter you are moving the object of subjectivity to it being God. Your morality is subjective because it relies on you correctly interpreting God’s morality from the Bible.

I would assert that no human can know the morals of God completely so the best anyone could do would be a close approximation of the morals of God. Which would be slightly different to another Christian’s interpretation of God’s morality.

So I would have to reject your premise at one remove. God’s morals may be perfect but can any human claim to follow them accurately? Without perfect knowledge of God that would be impossible.
 
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Larniavc

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If you have no reason as to why your belief is true, you have no reason to hold your belief. Regardless of what it is.
Not so. If I were to choose to hurt someone for no reason I would feel bad. I wouldn’t have to work it out and would not be able to verbalise my reasoning.
 
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Larniavc

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Yeah, I do ascribe value to human life. I like knowing that the people I care for are hake and healthy. I’m not assuming empathy to be good. It is what it is- a mechanism to bond a social species together.

Subjectively it feels good to me. For other people hurting people feels good. My decisions are based on what I feel, the upbringing I have had and my own imposed set of ethics that has changed throughout my life.

I consider survival having a greater value than non-survival as axiomatic by default. Could things change my position? Yeah, sure. I’ll cross that bridge if I ever need to.

Hopefully I won’t.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good post, Bradskii! You've given me something to think about this morning, most surely!

Even more so, you've made me confront again just how morally ignorant I was as a kid ... ... Damn, I was so morally ignorant! And in looking back, I see how the paucity of moral teaching in my own life was such that no one could make sense of much of it all for me.

So, I did the things I did ...

Of course, I guess I had Stan Lee and George Lucas to thank for a few things, at the least. Hugh Hefner too. I guess it wasn't a total loss? Moses and Jesus weren't too much help at the time though. I wonder why that was?

Do any of you who go in for psycho-analysis have an answer to the ethical quandry I had as a kid living in the good ol' U.S.A.? If so, I'd love to hear it.
 
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Ken-1122

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First of all I use the term *secular* lightly here as it's the only way in my pea size brain to encompass all worldviews that deny a transcendent source for morality or moral truths. So if it doesn't comport 1:1 please forgive me. Now to the post .
Fair enough
If the acceptability of your moral actions is determined by the society around you then you can't say that other people's moral stances are wrong. Only that it is wrong for our current society, according to our arbitrary preferences.
I disagree. Though the acceptability of my moral actions is determined by the society around me, not all of society's moral views are the same, so I pick and choose which moral views meets my approval and which ones I reject. As a moral agent, I consider myself qualified to do this.
In order to believe certain morals are correct then you need to have a reason as to why that’s the case, under naturalism or materialism, a philosophical perspective that denies the transcendent it’s impossible.
I disagree! If you are a moral agent, this is simple! What I find difficult is to take somebody else's word for it without an ability to verify what they're telling you is right.
You have no reason to be empathetic, you have no reason to survive or live, you have no inherent value. It's all arbitrary now.
I have no idea how you’ve made such a leap of logic but you are wrong. I am empathetic, have reasons to live and have inherent value because these are standards I apply; not because someone else told me to.
According to the modern secular worldview the accusations laid against Christianity have no weight because in the worldview that slings them there's no ability to claim moral truth, only personal preferences (based on experience of stimulus).
If you’re saying according to non believers, Christians basing their morals on their God’s opinions is equal to me basing my moral views on my opinions; I will agree with you to an extent, because unlike the Christian; I can articulate why my moral views are best observed.
Things are different today, attempting to have a slave economy is disastrous economically. In the USA the South had a slave economy and became the poorest part of the nation, and even to this day it still hasn’t caught up with the non-slave states. Countries today that have slavery are some of the poorest nations on Earth. Slavery does not work like it used to.
In order to call the Romans wrong for building their empire on the backs of slaves you would need a reason as to why slavery is wrong both for them and us. In which case in order to do so you would assume a moral standard, something not relative.
I deem slavery wrong because the moral actions I’ve embraced from the society around me says slavery is wrong.
Lastly, in ANY *secular* worldview agreements upon behaviour =/= why I should follow them, they are arbitrary agreements and need a basis if you want to condemn someone.
With the *secular* worldview, the secularist has to give a convincing argument as to why their morals should be followed; which would be a heck of a lot more convincing than “because my God told me so” which lots of Christians have been known to say.
If a society comes together and agrees that torture for x reason is moral, and I disagree, which one would be right and why?
I will give a convincing argument as to why I am right.
I agree! And unless the person you are trying to convince shares the Christian worldview, “Because God said so” is not gonna be a convincing argument
 
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Tranquil Bondservant

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Correct it is based on God's preference and subjectivity, as He is the source of all truth. We're His creation and He determines the parameters of our behaviour. If you've read the Bible you'd know that it's very hard to misinterpret the ten commandments and even hard to misinterpret Christ's 2. There may be minor [Edit: and major lol] disagreements amongst brothers in the faith as to how to apply these moral truths, such as the second commandment or the Sabbath for example. But all who hold to the authority of scripture agree on the moral truths they proclaim, it's the application of them that we struggle with. We have an objective morality therein and it's why you see such a universality of agreement on issues like abortion across ALL Protestant denominations and even including the RC & EO Churches.

The ironic thing about this conversation is that in order to argue about morals stances you need to believe they can be true. The thing you thought made morality subjective, is in fact what allows us to argue objectively regarding morals.

You're on a website that claims only one person did. As for the rest of us: 1 John 1:8

Not so. If I were to choose to hurt someone for no reason I would feel bad. I wouldn’t have to work it out and would not be able to verbalise my reasoning.
This agrees with my OP "in ANY *secular* worldview agreements upon behaviour =/= why I should follow them, they are arbitrary agreements"

My friends I would love to get to the rest of your posts but it's 1AM here and I'll have to do it tomorrow. Ken if you're reading this I'll respond to you tomorrow, I like talking with you . Also Brad if you are too I'm sorry for getting frustrated and letting the caps lock loose, I'll try better next time to not let it boil over. Please forgive me.
 
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Larniavc

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We have an objective morality therein and it's why you see such a universality of agreement on issues like abortion across ALL Protestant denominations and even including the RC & EO Churches.
Really? I’ve come across many Christians who might disagree with that point.
 
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Larniavc

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If you've read the Bible you'd know that it's very hard to misinterpret the ten commandments and even hard to misinterpret Christ's 2.
Do the Ten Commandments apply to God? My reading of the Bible suggest God kills at his discretion, without recourse to any external process. Does that not imply that God’s ethical framework is separate from ours?
 
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Larniavc

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The ironic thing about this conversation is that in order to argue about morals stances you need to believe they can be true. The thing you thought made morality subjective, is in fact what allows us to argue objectively regarding morals.
I’m not so sure. If a you ascribe to your interpretation of God’s morality and third person were to ascribe to their best interpretation of my morality where would be the difference in subjectivity?
 
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grasping the after wind

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Why do you think that compassion is universally accepted throughout the world as the guiding light for rationale within any civilization? I see no evidence to support that.
 
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Larniavc

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You're on a website that claims only one person did. As for the rest of us: 1 John 1:8
And that is what makes me think that a Christian has a subjective morality because only Jesus truly understands. Everyone else should acknowledge (according to John) that that truth is not something we can ever have. So morality of a human is subjective due to imperfect human understanding.

This is very similar to my own take. I know my morality is imperfect because I am not perfect so I do the best I can.

What say you?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh good gravy! You guys toss around terms like "empathy" "compassion" "success" as if they're cats lying on the couch just ready to be hugged.

They're not, really, though. At best, human beings do a hodge-podge job with realizing and achieving these social concepts. Let's not pretend that it is or ever has been any more than a messy hodge-podge. I'm sure Oppenheimer would have at least partially agreed with me in saying that ................ "success" is a very, very relative term!



Somehow, I get the relative feeling--- in accordance with what Jesus taught ---that we all can do better than this where "empathy" "compassion" "success" are important as results in the ongoing evolution of our humanity.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I’m not so sure. If a you ascribe to your interpretation of God’s morality and third person were to ascribe to their best interpretation of my morality where would be the difference in subjectivity?
I have a take on that if you don't mind hearing it. The difference is in authority not in subjectivity. If one believes that there is a Creator of the universe, one then must assume that that Creator is superior to oneself as one did not create oneself and does not have the ability to create a physical universe but is a product of the work of that Creator. By the act of Creation, one can also assume that this Creator has the authority to decide what is and is not the intended purpose of that universe and the purpose of all the individual things and actions that that Creator intended when that Creator created. With those as the initial assumptions one will conclude that the Creator's subjective opinion on what is and is not correct within the Creator's creation holds more authoritative weight than any individual subjective assessment of a particular being within that creation. Further it would be reasonable to conclude that the authoritative weight of a Creator's subjective opinion on what is or is not correct about any part of what that Creator created would be greater than the authoritative weight of any number of individuals or any number of groups of individuals within that creation.

This does not solve the problem of people having different beliefs about what is and is not morally upright as one must agree with those assumptions i mentioned in order to agree with the conclusions. It is simply my way of explaining the POV of those like myself that believe in both the subjectivity of morality and the existence of a Creator God. It is why we believe our underpinnings are less capricious than those that use other criterion for their moral value system. Basically, we believe that, though morality by its very nature is subjective, we can adopt the moral code for living that we were given by our God and trust in its validity as if it were objective, even though it is the Creator's subjective preference. because we did not come up with it by using our own subjective preferences but were given it by someone superior to ourselves that has the authority to decide what is and is not morally correct.
 
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jayem

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I haven’t read every post in this thread. This may have been discussed already. I don’t believe in any of the gods in any of the world’s religions. To me they’re all products of the human imagination. But I do believe that what goes around comes around. If I act like a jerk, and treat other people like trash, the chances are good that I’ll eventually be treated the same way. And since this life is all I’ve ever have, I want it to be as pleasant and stress-free as possible. This is simply the principle of reciprocity. It’s reason enough for me, and it should be common sense. And it seems to me that something is seriously lacking if you need belief in a supernatural deity to have a moral compass.

And BTW, history is replete with wars, pogroms, persecutions, stolen lands and resources, forced conversions, and other atrocities committed by adherents of one religion on those of a different faith. Religion has a decidedly mixed record in promoting ethical behavior. Religious faith is far too easily used to put a veneer of godliness on all manner of human greed, prejudice, and powerlust. As Pascal (an astute and sincere Christian) said: Men never do evil as cheerfully and as completely as when they do it from religious conviction.
 
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Ken-1122

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Why would I make such an assumption? If there is a creator of the Universe, the only thing I will assume is he is more powerful than I; NOT morally superior than I, Such abilities does not make you good. In theory, you could be the creator of the Universe and be the most wicked being in existence.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Most religious beliefs, outside of some that seem to for the most part no longer exist in the world, do not cause people to do evil. Some people will use the excuse that it is because of religion when they do evil. Claiming either that they are doing this out of religious belief or that they must do this to combat religious belief. If religion is the cause of the evil that people have done while espousing religious beliefs, how does one explain the good that people have done while espousing religious beliefs? Shouldn't it be one way only ? Can something cause people to do completely contradictory things simultaneously? Perhaps humans are much more complex than just summing up their behavior as "religion bad". People are prone to do nasty things and most seem to feel that they need an excuse. They might find it in religion or political ideology or in reciprocity. "They did me and mine wrong, so they deserve to be paid back exponentially." .
 
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Ken-1122

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If religion is the cause of the evil that people have done while espousing religious beliefs, how does one explain the good that people have done while espousing religious beliefs?
Most religious books are written in a way that the reader can interpret any way he wants based on his subjective beliefs. As the old saying goes; good men will do good, bad men will do bad regardless of religion. The difference is the religious man will use his religion to justify his deeds, whereas the non-religious man will just act on his integrity.
Shouldn't it be one way only ?
No.
Can something cause people to do completely contradictory things simultaneously?
Of course! The same way 2 people can read the same religious text and come away with 2 different interpretations of how the religion should be practiced. How do you think the countless sects and denominations have become associated with each religion?
 
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