Modern miracles

Wiccan_Child · Jun 14, 2009

To what extent does God interact with the modern world? Why doesn't he get up close and personal like he did in the Old and New Testaments?

ephraimanesti · Jun 14, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
To what extent does God interact with the modern world? Why doesn't he get up close and personal like he did in the Old and New Testaments?

Well, God, through the Holy Spirit residing in the hearts of Christians and working out His will in and through them, is about as "up close and personal" as it gets!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

FutureAndAHope · Jun 15, 2009

Here are some examples of God working miraculously. God still heals see John Mellor Ministries, God raises people from the dead Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish - Ians Testimony

God still speaks and directs people:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was captured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words meant. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homeless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. SO I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosaur. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentence "I bood", it entered my mind when I was awake, a term I had never heard before. I decided to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies "I bood," in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslim and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslim. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.
"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him "unclean.'"- Mat 15:11

Wiccan_Child · Jun 15, 2009

ephraimanesti said:
Well, God, through the Holy Spirit residing in the hearts of Christians and working out His will in and through them, is about as "up close and personal" as it gets!

But notice how this is a completely subjective instance of divine intervention. What happened to the burning bushes (Exodus 3:2), parting of seas (Exodus 14:21), suspending the motion of the Sun (Isaiah 38:8)? God seemed much more... pro-active .

Chesterton · Jun 15, 2009

I don't think it was really as up close and personal as you might imagine. I remember as a kid seeing one of those Hollywood epics about the Bible and getting the impression that the history of the Jews was one encounter with God after another, that God was always right there over their shoulders ready to make frequent appearances to large groups of people. But if you know the Old Testament, you know you're dealing with a limited number of "encounters" over a very long period of time, a couple of millenia I guess, and most encounters were one-on-one with a number of prophets.

buzzini · Jun 15, 2009

When God showed himself to us as Jesus, many people saw his miracles and said they was done thru demons. Hence miracles are no proves nor do they convince anyone. in fact, it just condemned those people deeper in hell.

Hence God allowed this veil between us and God. It is like a quiet room for us to think, to ponder if there is a God or not. and deep within each of us there is this knowledge, that's all there is. For God does not even want to force people to beleive in him by showing himself. The purpose is to develop your ruling love, either for God, or you love yourself. When you love God, then God will take you to be with Him. When you don't, of cause God wont' force you to be with him. But we will not know our ruling love when God is revealed to us.

Criada · Jun 15, 2009

There are still miracles today.
There seem to be less in the west than in the developing world, but they still happen.

seashale76 · Jun 15, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
To what extent does God interact with the modern world? Why doesn't he get up close and personal like he did in the Old and New Testaments?

He does. Come and see our Divine Liturgy any given Sunday. It is a Holy Mystery.

ebia · Jun 15, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
To what extent does God interact with the modern world? Why doesn't he get up close and personal like he did in the Old and New Testaments?

Doesn't he?

We live in a time, between Pentecost and final Resurrection, when the Holy Spirit is more present with God's people than before, not less.

As to miracles, I suspect you are working from the wrong definition. A miracle, in the New Testament sense, is not "something that defies the laws of nature" but "a wonderous thing that speaks of the Kingdom of God".

One good example in our lifetime is South Africa. Before the fall of the Apartheid regime no-one seriously thought it could end except in a terrible bloodbath. Yet a few inspired people led by a small, unassuming, quite black archbishop who spends the first three hours of each day in prayer led the most amazing process of reconciliation that largly avoided the expected attrocities and began a process of genuine healing. That is what a miracle is. Not a magic trick.

Jason Engwer · Jun 16, 2009

Asking for more miracles doesn't explain the ones we have already. And it's not as though past miracles are entirely inaccessible to us. Just as we believe reports about ancient wars, ancient political controversies, etc. on the basis of ancient testimony and archeological artifacts, for example, we can do the same with ancient records pertaining to the miraculous. We can compare Old Testament prophecies to reports of events in the life of Jesus, for example. Thus, ancient miracles are sometimes verifiable in modern times. And there are many credible reports of what we would commonly call supernatural phenomena in today's world. See here.

Depending on one's view of eschatology, Christianity can be said to anticipate a future phase of history with major, public miracles in the events surrounding Jesus' second coming. But there's no need for such miracles in every generation or every part of the world, nor does Christianity say that we should expect that sort of scenario. God can work in people's lives, and bring them to a knowledge of the truth, in other ways, and He knows what's warranted in the case of each individual (Acts 17:26-27).

ephraimanesti · Jun 16, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
But notice how this is a completely subjective instance of divine intervention. What happened to the burning bushes (Exodus 3:2), parting of seas (Exodus 14:21), suspending the motion of the Sun (Isaiah 38:8)? God seemed much more... pro-active .

MY BROTHER,

All personal interaction with God is, by definition, "subjective"--i.e., based on one's personal experience. Subjectivity is nothing more or less than objectivity personally realized and experienced.

God's most "pro-active" act is His giving of His only begotten Son to us to cleanse us, to indwell us, to guide us, and to immerse us in His Love. This personal experience of God's Love, rather than being relegated to second place behind "suspending the motion of the sun," etc., is the grandest and most grace-filled of God's many miracles, and, in the long run, the only one that truly matters.

Were God to "stop the sun" today, not an atheist in the house would be converted because their willful disbelief in God has nothing to do with "proof" or God's "pro-activity," but is the result of egocentrically choosing darkness over light--"And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (John 3:19-21)

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Wiccan_Child · Jun 16, 2009

Chesterton said:
I don't think it was really as up close and personal as you might imagine. I remember as a kid seeing one of those Hollywood epics about the Bible and getting the impression that the history of the Jews was one encounter with God after another, that God was always right there over their shoulders ready to make frequent appearances to large groups of people. But if you know the Old Testament, you know you're dealing with a limited number of "encounters" over a very long period of time, a couple of millenia I guess, and most encounters were one-on-one with a number of prophets.

I've read the Bible (shocking, I know ); Genesis and Exodus are rife with God performing undeniable miracles. Miracles (allegedly) performed today seem to be wholly subjective; even instances of divine healing are limited to the unseeable (i.e., no amputees growing back limbs).

Criada said:
There are still miracles today.
There seem to be less in the west than in the developing world, but they still happen.

Can you give examples? Also, why don't they happen in the West? Third world countries may be more needy than us, but that doesn't mean we're without need ourselves; is God discriminatory?

(I don't mean to sound argumentative or provocative, I'm just pondering).

seashale76 said:
He does. Come and see our Divine Liturgy any given Sunday. It is a Holy Mystery.

What is the Divine Liturgy?

Wiccan_Child · Jun 16, 2009

ebia said:
Doesn't he?

We live in a time, between Pentecost and final Resurrection, when the Holy Spirit is more present with God's people than before, not less.

As to miracles, I suspect you are working from the wrong definition. A miracle, in the New Testament sense, is not "something that defies the laws of nature" but "a wonderous thing that speaks of the Kingdom of God".

Call it what you will, but I am asking about the former. Burning bushes and parting of seas doesn't seem to happen today.

ebia said:
One good example in our lifetime is South Africa. Before the fall of the Apartheid regime no-one seriously thought it could end except in a terrible bloodbath. Yet a few inspired people led by a small, unassuming, quite black archbishop who spends the first three hours of each day in prayer led the most amazing process of reconciliation that largly avoided the expected attrocities and began a process of genuine healing. That is what a miracle is. Not a magic trick.

While that is undoubtedly an amazing event, it isn't the sort I am talking of.

ephraimanesti said:
MY BROTHER,

All personal interaction with God is, by definition, "subjective"--i.e., based on one's personal experience. Subjectivity is nothing more or less than objectivity personally realized and experienced.

True, but I'm not talking about a personal interaction. In the past, God worked in very objective ways; now it seems he is solely subjective.

ephraimanesti said:
Were God to "stop the sun" today, not an atheist in the house would be converted because their willful disbelief in God has nothing to do with "proof" or God's "pro-activity," but is the result of egocentrically choosing darkness over light--"And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (John 3:19-21)

On the contrary, atheists convert to one religion or another when they see (what they consider to be) proof of that religion or deity. Anthony Flew, for instance, famously converted to deism after seeing what he thought to be design in the cosmos.
So, no, I think that, given universal and undeniable proof of God, every non-Christian would get on bended knee and praise the Holy of Holies.

That said, I'm not asking for proof. I'm just wondering why God seems to have changed his tactics between the OT and NT, and the modern day.

rahmiyn · Jun 16, 2009

Chesterton said:
I don't think it was really as up close and personal as you might imagine.

This is so very true. If you read the OT, the prophets' main message dealt with Israel's unbelief. The invisible God who desires faith is the same now as then.

Faith is the key. We're mentally wired to distrust the wow-moment of a miracle after time has passed, which is why the burning-bushes of the OT did not arrest Israel's unbelief.

The pagan religions around them were more visceral and luring because they utilized very physical, tangible aspects into their worship (images, rituals, ceremonies requiring physical involvement. . .), and the prophets were always warning the covenant people to avoid these lures.

It's the same today. When we do avoid the tangible lures, and we seek only him with all our heart, soul, and mind, we do find him and the encounter is unmistakeable.

Chesterton · Jun 16, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
I've read the Bible (shocking, I know ); Genesis and Exodus are rife with God performing undeniable miracles. Miracles (allegedly) performed today seem to be wholly subjective; even instances of divine healing are limited to the unseeable (i.e., no amputees growing back limbs).

I don't think any miracle is undeniable; some people indeed deny all of them. What difference if we saw one with our own eyes? We'd probably search for a naturalistic explanation, and if we couldn't come up with one, we'd say "well there has to be one, we just don't know what it is". (Which is what some say about reality itself.)

Aside from that, there is the seeming problem that miracles don't "take"; the effect on cynical humans wears off. God appeared on the mountain, and the people trembled, but eventually they built a false idol anyway. In the desert they had no food, and God sent manna. At first the people were grateful for being saved from starvation, but before long were complaining about the taste. In WWII there was an event called "The Miracle of Dunkirk", seen as a miracle in response to the specific prayers of the British people. Now, 60-some years later, Wiki names it the "Dunkirk Evacuation".

Remember though, that the idea that "miracles don't happen" is not based on logical grounds, but is a dogma of materialism:

"Somehow or other an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them. ... If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural. If you reject it, you can only mean one of two things. You reject the peasant's story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story. ... It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence--it is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence being constrained to do so by your creed. But I am not constrained by any creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of mediaeval and modern times, I have come to the conclusion that they occurred. All argument against these plain facts is always argument in a circle. If I say, 'Mediaeval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles,' they answer, 'But mediaevals were superstitious'; if I want to know in what they were superstitious, the only ultimate answer is that they believed in the miracles. If I say 'a peasant saw a ghost,' I am told, 'But peasants are so credulous.' If I ask, 'Why credulous?' the only answer is--that they see ghosts. Iceland is impossible because only stupid sailors have seen it; and the sailors are only stupid because they say they have seen Iceland." G.K.C.

ebia · Jun 16, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
Call it what you will, but I am asking about the former. Burning bushes and parting of seas doesn't seem to happen today.

I'm tempted to say "you haven't been to Victoria lately".

While that is undoubtedly an amazing event, it isn't the sort I am talking of.

But it's you that's mis-categorising. The biblical authors weren't thinking in terms of "something that goes against science" - this wasn't a scientific age. Their category is "a wonderous thing [that speaks of the Kingdom of God]". You are reading your category onto the text anachronistically, and then complaining because the best current examples don't fit it.

If you understand what you are reading then Jesus calling Levi and sitting down together with him and his mates is as much a miracle as healing the blind beggar. New Testament miracles need to be categorised in 2nd Temple terms - the in-breaking of God's future Kingdom into the present. Not on some post-enlightenment terms that would be completely alien to the culture of the time.

If it surprises you, makes you go "wow", and points to a better existence, then it's a miracle in the N.T. sense.

seashale76 · Jun 16, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
What is the Divine Liturgy?

Eucharistic worship service: Divine Liturgy - OrthodoxWiki

Wiccan_Child · Jun 16, 2009

Chesterton said:
I don't think any miracle is undeniable; some people indeed deny all of them. What difference if we saw one with our own eyes? We'd probably search for a naturalistic explanation, and if we couldn't come up with one, we'd say "well there has to be one, we just don't know what it is". (Which is what some say about reality itself.)

I think you're confusing blind adherence in materialism to healthy scepticism. It's one thing to search for a natural explanation (after all, a natural explanation is more likely than a supernatural one), but I agree that it's wrong to dismiss any supernatural explanation out-of-hand. That's why I reject the idea that science is inherently naturalistic (or, more accurately, reject the distinction between 'natural' and 'supernatural'; there are simply phenomena).

Chesterton said:
Aside from that, there is the seeming problem that miracles don't "take"; the effect on cynical humans wears off. God appeared on the mountain, and the people trembled, but eventually they built a false idol anyway. In the desert they had no food, and God sent manna. At first the people were grateful for being saved from starvation, but before long were complaining about the taste. In WWII there was an event called "The Miracle of Dunkirk", seen as a miracle in response to the specific prayers of the British people. Now, 60-some years later, Wiki names it the "Dunkirk Evacuation".

Acknowledging that a miracle occurred doesn't mean you can't complain about it, or that you see it as any less divine if you do. God could spontaneously set my room on fire, and I'd be forced to concede that that is, indeed, a miracle. But that doesn't mean I can't complain about being set alight!

And calling the Dunkirk Evacuation the "Miracle of Dunkirk" is a) overlaying it with unnecessary religious overtones (which I think Wikipedia has a policy against), and b) an exercise in statistical ignorance. Of all the military operations that went on during WW2, a small fraction are bound to have an unusually good casualty rate. This is simply a consequence of repeatedly running a normally-distributed trial.
It was only a 'miracle' in the 'what a fortuitous turn of events!' sense. What most people consider to be actual, religious miracles is something quite different.

[/ramble]

Wiccan_Child · Jun 16, 2009

ebia said:
I'm tempted to say "you haven't been to Victoria lately".

ebia said:
But it's you that's mis-categorising. The biblical authors weren't thinking in terms of "something that goes against science" - this wasn't a scientific age. Their category is "a wonderous thing [that speaks of the Kingdom of God]". You are reading your category onto the text anachronistically, and then complaining because the best current examples don't fit it.

On the contrary, you're assuming that I'm using the Bible at all. I'm not talking about what the Bible calls 'miracles' (I'm quite aware of what modern Christianity considers to be miraculous). Rather, I'm talking about those phenomena described in the Old and New Testaments wherein God gives some outward, objective display (e.g., talking through burning bushes, parting the Red Sea, turning rods into snakes). Whatever you want to call them, God has apparently stopped performing them.

ebia said:
If you understand what you are reading then Jesus calling Levi and sitting down together with him and his mates is as much a miracle as healing the blind beggar. New Testament miracles need to be categorised in 2nd Temple terms - the in-breaking of God's future Kingdom into the present. Not on some post-enlightenment terms that would be completely alien to the culture of the time.

If it surprises you, makes you go "wow", and points to a better existence, then it's a miracle in the N.T. sense.

Perhaps, but it's not a miracle in my sense.

Wiccan_Child · Jun 16, 2009

seashale76 said:
Eucharistic worship service: Divine Liturgy - OrthodoxWiki

My apologies, but I still don't understand. Is it simply the name for a group of Christians engaging in the group worship of God? Is it proper name for the Christian ritual whereby Christians eat wafers and drink wine?
Or is there something more to it than that? Something less mundane, more... spiritual?

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