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Modern day Judaizers

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psalms 91

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While you are at this perhaps you would care to go back to the OT and look at the feasts and festivals and tell me what God said would be celebrated forever and what the definition of forever is. Also might want to take a look at Revelation and tell me which feast will be celebrated in the Millenial
 
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cherokeehippie

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I agree that there shouldn't be a forcing of Torah Observance, legalism, etc, However, I think we should also realize the freedom in celebrationg Passover, Sukkot, etc!! Not as legalistic burdens, but as a joy and to realize the richness of the symbolism of Yeshua in the Feasts!! I mean...if you look at Zechariah, it says that the Nations will be reguired to come up to Jerusalem to worship the LORD at the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot). As someone who has been over to Israel 4 times, a nonjew, I find such richness in the cultural background of my faith in Yeshua!! I know that there are elements in the Messianic movement that push Torah observance, etc, as if we are all suppose to be carbon copy Orthodox 'Jews', etc. I don't think that's right...in fact, I've been in certain Messianic congregations that just felt not right...legalistic, etc.but then I've been in others that were good, Spirit-led, level=headed mature, etc. As I understand it, Israeli Believers dont' have to deal with the 'artificial trappings' like Messianics tend to do here in the states. For example...there's no scripture that tells us that we have to light Shabbat candles, etc. It seems, that the focus is so much on the shabbat candles, challah, etc. It seems artificial to me (Forgive me if I offend anyone out there)..just like I find certain traditional christian stuff artificial., however, I find Sukkot and Passover rich and fullfilling. I've camped in a Sukkah for a the whole week of Sukkot when I was in Israel, with palm branches, pomegranettes, etc!
To make story short...there are extremes on both sides. Some even think that a Jewish believer shouldn't do anything Jewish anymore and celebrate christmas and eat pork, etc...and if they do Passover or Sukkot, then they are judaizing. I knnow I probably irritate some with my singing of Israeli Hebrew songs in worship to Yeshua and in my talk of Israel...experiences there, etc...but it really changed me when I was over there.
But, I know there are Messianics who would probably not want to have anything to do with me because being Cherokee background, I go to powwows, burn sage in prayer or while pleading blood of Yeshua over my place, etc and I listen to Jonathan Maracle's Broken Walls (Native style worship with drums, etc)...I had a Sephardic descent hispanic Messianic woman react negatively to me one time because I mention that I made pine needle baskets....but then again...some Native believers would probably react negatively to me be also because I sing in Hebrew, share about Israel, insights in the Hebrew in scripture, SUkkot, etc.
Another thing...there's nothing like celebrating Sukkot in Jerusalem!! That's where the LORD said for Israel to celebrate Sukkot, not in the diaspora. It's not the same in the states, etc. Now I haven't put up a sukkah or had Passover these past 10 yrs...been in the sticks in Arkansas...but I don't feel 'condemned' because I haven't done Passover or Sukkot these past 10 years. That's the awesome thing about Grace in Yeshua.
It's a freedom to do either, celebrate or not celebrate!! Not an obligation!
 
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pinetree

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people are welcome to do as they wish,and celebrate what they want to...

I love the OT writings just as much as anyone else does..

But the writings themselves,were looking for the better way..


1 Peter 1:10
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,


And as a scriptural doctrinal issue,we are not obligated to observe the laws,or festivals.

I think the op was quite clear on that.

In fact...look who the law was for..what is the the glee for about the law?

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

Dont get mad at me..see the scriptures..:)
 
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pinetree

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I agree that there shouldn't be a forcing of Torah Observance, legalism, etc, However, I think we should also realize the freedom in celebrationg Passover, Sukkot, etc!! Not as legalistic burdens, but as a joy and to realize the richness of the symbolism of Yeshua in the Feasts!! I mean...if you look at Zechariah, it says that the Nations will be reguired to come up to Jerusalem to worship the LORD at the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot). As someone who has been over to Israel 4 times, a nonjew, I find such richness in the cultural background of my faith in Yeshua!! I know that there are elements in the Messianic movement that push Torah observance, etc, as if we are all suppose to be carbon copy Orthodox 'Jews', etc. I don't think that's right...in fact, I've been in certain Messianic congregations that just felt not right...legalistic, etc.but then I've been in others that were good, Spirit-led, level=headed mature, etc. As I understand it, Israeli Believers dont' have to deal with the 'artificial trappings' like Messianics tend to do here in the states. For example...there's no scripture that tells us that we have to light Shabbat candles, etc. It seems, that the focus is so much on the shabbat candles, challah, etc. It seems artificial to me (Forgive me if I offend anyone out there)..just like I find certain traditional christian stuff artificial., however, I find Sukkot and Passover rich and fullfilling. I've camped in a Sukkah for a the whole week of Sukkot when I was in Israel, with palm branches, pomegranettes, etc!
To make story short...there are extremes on both sides. Some even think that a Jewish believer shouldn't do anything Jewish anymore and celebrate christmas and eat pork, etc...and if they do Passover or Sukkot, then they are judaizing. I knnow I probably irritate some with my singing of Israeli Hebrew songs in worship to Yeshua and in my talk of Israel...experiences there, etc...but it really changed me when I was over there.
But, I know there are Messianics who would probably not want to have anything to do with me because being Cherokee background, I go to powwows, burn sage in prayer or while pleading blood of Yeshua over my place, etc and I listen to Jonathan Maracle's Broken Walls (Native style worship with drums, etc)...I had a Sephardic descent hispanic Messianic woman react negatively to me one time because I mention that I made pine needle baskets....but then again...some Native believers would probably react negatively to me be also because I sing in Hebrew, share about Israel, insights in the Hebrew in scripture, SUkkot, etc.
Another thing...there's nothing like celebrating Sukkot in Jerusalem!! That's where the LORD said for Israel to celebrate Sukkot, not in the diaspora. It's not the same in the states, etc. Now I haven't put up a sukkah or had Passover these past 10 yrs...been in the sticks in Arkansas...but I don't feel 'condemned' because I haven't done Passover or Sukkot these past 10 years. That's the awesome thing about Grace in Yeshua.
It's a freedom to do either, celebrate or not celebrate!! Not an obligation!
Hi,I understand what you mean..
Amen,enjoy the culture,and history..:)

But the bible is quite clear,about our new covenant standing,and it is not to laws,and feativals anymore.
I am a gentile...

Thanks..
 
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cherokeehippie

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Then explain Zechariah 14:16-20? God did not tell us we can't celebrate the festivals anymore! That is reverse legalism. ;) And, explain the temple in the millenium? That is mention in Ezekiel. ONe thing that is interesting, That I remember learning, that the offereings in the temple in the millenium are different...there's no sin offerings, and tehre is no barricade dividing Jews and gentiles, either!! As I understand it, It will be where Yeshua's throne will be and New Jerusalem will touch the earthly Jerusalem!
 
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psalms 91

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Hi,I understand what you mean..
Amen,enjoy the culture,and history..:)

But the bible is quite clear,about our new covenant standing,and it is not to laws,and feativals anymore.
I am a gentile...

Thanks..
It will be interesting to see how you deal with having to go up to Israel in the millenial and celebrate Passover.
 
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cherokeehippie

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Another thing..thru out the years, the Jewish cultural forms picked up things that wasn't originally biblical Torah...for the most part, the laws were common sense stuff, don't sleep with wife's sister, etc, don't drink blood, (Yuck!! Who wants to anyway! It churns my stomach, especially the thought of german or polish blood sausages...or whoever eats that), making sure people won't fall off the roof of one's house, etc. However, the Pharisees added stuff to it.."Fence around the law', etc.
 
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pinetree

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While you are at this perhaps you would care to go back to the OT and look at the feasts and festivals and tell me what God said would be celebrated forever and what the definition of forever is. Also might want to take a look at Revelation and tell me which feast will be celebrated in the Millenial
so does that mean thaat this gentile is now to follow rules of the Torah?
Which ones.The bible says if you break one law,you break them all.

I thought this was true,,

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
 
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cherokeehippie

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And...thank God I don't have to go off to a hut when I have my menses...and we don't have to see the High Priest for cleansing after being unclean, etc. Most of the stuff we don't have to deal with anymore...is the unclean rituals, etc. Native people had similar laws, by the way!!
 
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pinetree

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the bible is clear...

The op is quite scripturally true.

See here more about the law..



Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."


And this..


Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.





 
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cherokeehippie

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There is no Greek or Jew in Him, but that doesn't mean we have to be all the same! He created us to be unique in Him, not carbon copy charismatics, Jews, baptists, etc. We have the fallen sin nature tendency to force others to be like us. That's what I'm trying to explain. We don't like it if others are different from us, and sadly, that mentality is rampent in the church, and in Messianic congregations. I'm not happy with either side. In fact, a Cherokee minister i know of, calls that spiritual cannibalism.
 
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pinetree

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I think we're making it out more complicated than it is! I'm not talking about rituals, I'm talking about celebration here!!
Hello..
Really,I understand,enjoy the celebration..:)

The op is about leglaism infiltrating the church.

Paul fought it,and we should too.:)
 
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cherokeehippie

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I agree about legalism, it comes in all kinds, not just Jewish. Even native forms of legalism. Are you saying I'm not fighting it? LOL...I know I'm probably the last person acused of legalism. Some think the total opposite about me....especially here in the Ozarks, I don't go to any of the churches here and I don't avoid tv, internet, etc like others around here.
 
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cherokeehippie

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Also the legalism of shame that others tend to put on us! and lemon sucking mentality. There's too much of that and it's sad. Abba wants us to lay the frustation and anger at His feet. I finally had to do that and back away from this forum awhile back.
 
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