Model Worship Service in the Last Chap of John?

[Telaquapacky]

I think that the account of Jesus' appearance to the disciples on the shore in the last chapter of John was a model for what a church worship service should be. I got the idea because the passage contains the following elements which I believe are fitting in a worship service (compare this synopsis to a reading of John chapter 21):

Jesus shares in the bounty he gives us in our daily work and shows us we can't make it without Him. He receives our worship. He restores us from our failures and gives us an opportunity to renew our life commitment to Him. He asks for all, but accepts for the time being what we feel we can give Him. He lets us know the plans He has for us and reminds us not to compare ourselves to others, but to accept His unique plan for our own lives.

Any thoughts?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

[bible]John 21[/bible]

Jesus shares in the bounty he gives us in our daily work and shows us we can't make it without Him. He receives our worship. He restores us from our failures and gives us an opportunity to renew our life commitment to Him. He asks for all, but accepts for the time being what we feel we can give Him. He lets us know the plans He has for us and reminds us not to compare ourselves to others, but to accept His unique plan for our own lives.

Any thoughts?

Just setting up your statement right below John 21 for comparison purposes.

 

[Telaquapacky]

Thank you, Moriah for joining the discussion with me.

I don't want to give away everything I have about this Scripture, but I thought I should clarify something I said in the synopsis that may not be apparent to everyone from the text, and I hope when you read this, that it is as big a blessing as learning it was for me.

He asks for all, but accepts for the time being what we feel we can give Him.

Where does it say that? Jesus asked Peter three times if Peter loved him, and Peter replied three times "You know I love you." Peter was sad when Jesus asked him the third time, because it made Peter remember that he had denied Jesus three times the night before Jesus was crucified. But there was another thing Jesus and Peter were communicating to one another that doesn't show up in the English translation, which some of you are probably aware of, but some of you may not have heard of yet. When Jesus asked Peter those three times if he loved Him, the word "love," appears six times in the English translation- "Do you love me?" "Yes I love you." "Do you love me?" "Yes I love you." "Do you love me?" "Yes I love you." But in the Greek text, the words used for "love" are different- and they tell a very different story that reveals a deeper insight into the emotions Jesus and Peter were sharing.

The word, "love" has many meanings. You know, I'm starting to think that we Anglo-Saxons who communicate with this word, "love," must be a very loveless culture. Think about the Eskimoes. They have probably a dozen words for "snow," because they live in an icy, snowy enviornment, and their lives and livllihoods revolve around snow. Eskimoes don't have many words for the things that don't concern them, but they have a lot of words for snow. I heard of a native American tribe who lived around the Great Lakes area, and because so much of their lives revolved around lakes and rivers, they had several different words for water- describing water with ripples refected in the moonlight- water with waves and white caps in the wind, still water, etc. Well, I am aware of three distinctly different Greek words for love: Eros, Agape and Phileo. Eros means passionate, sexual or romantic love. Agape means self-sacrificing, giving love focused solely on benefiting the one who is loved. Phileo is brotherly love. We Anglophones have just that one word, "love." Kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

When we look at what Jesus and Peter were really saying to one another, in Greek, according to John and his editorial helper(s), it goes like this:

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly agape me more than these?"

"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I phileo you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly agape me?"

He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I phileo you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you phileo me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you phileo me?"

He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I phileo you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

Do you see what Jesus and Peter were really saying to one another? Jesus asked Peter twice if Peter really had self-sacrificing, Agape love for Jesus. And Peter honestly replied, "Yes, but you know my heart. The truth is, I have phileo, brotherly love for you." Peter's once boasting, self-confidence was pretty much crushed when he failed Jesus the night before the crucifixion. Peter had once thought he had agape for Jesus, but after that, he realized he could not lie to himself or Jesus any more. He realized, like many of us, that we cannot really love Jesus back as much as Jesus loves us.

Then, the emotional climax of that encounter came when Jesus changed his question to Peter. He asked Peter the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you phileo me- do you have brotherly love for me?" And Peter was sad because now, not just because Jesus had asked the third time- a memory of Peter's betrayal. Jesus had lowered his expectations of Peter. And Peter had to be honest and respond that he could only live up to those lowered expectations. "Lord, you know all things. You know that I phileo you."

Then Jesus said, "Feed my sheep." Jesus told Peter, even though He knew that Peter could not love Jesus back as much as Jesus loved Peter, Jesus still accepted Peter, and still wanted Peter as a trusted friend and gospel worker. What that says to me is that Jesus asks us, do we agape Him? He asks us for everything. He asks us for self-sacrificing love. But He knows that we are only capable of phileo love. So. even though He asks us for agape, He will accept phileo from us, as long as that is all that we can give Him. His love is free of demand, because that's what agape is like.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Moriah knows about the phileo - agape sequence in the story. In fact that bes the first thing coming to its mind when it read this, but it did not connect the dots to what you bes saying, so thanks for the explanation.

Phileo seems more precious to Moriah than agape, even though agape in action bes the most reliable. Agape indicates actions of love but phileo indicates actual feelings of love. And while Moriah would prefer that even those what hates and despises it would "agape" Moriah -- behave lovingly and kindly toward it -- it would prefer above all not being hated or despised in the first place, but having others experience real feelings of love for it in their hearts. The story takes an interesting twist if we view it this way instead ...

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly [act lovingly toward] me more than these?"

"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I [genuinely FEEL love for] you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly [act lovingly toward] me?"

He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I [genuinely FEEL love for] you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you [really genuinely feel love for] me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you [really genuinely feel love for] me?"

He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I [really genuinely feel love for] you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.​

It seems over the centuries the Christian tradition has developed this habit of assuaging our guilt over lacking genuine feelings toward others by patting us on the head and saying "there, there, you don't need to really care about others, just so long as you act like you do." Well that bes a good start, sure -- we also teach small children to SHARE even when they do NOT "feel like it" -- but bes not the goal that they will become people who will associate both empathy toward another and good feelings inside with sharing as they grow and thus eventually share spontaneously without being told JUST because they DO feel like it? Maybe God's goal bes that eventually we look upon those now our "enemies" with as much affection and care and tender yearning for their welfare in our hearts as we so easily conjure contempt and ill-will and spite toward them now. Oh, the horrors, to think Christ might have actually meant it when He commanded us to love our enemies ... and that He bes actually tricking us into one day doing just that!!!

 

[StormyOne]

good points Tela, and something to consider....

 

[Telaquapacky]

Thanks, Stormy for joining in!

Moriah, you have a point in that there is a lot to be said for phileo, although I usually think agape encompases phileo, and agape could encompass eros as well, because I feel mixtures of all three kinds of love for my wife.

One might say that there are different English words for love as well, like "affection," or "respect." But I still wish English had words that made it easier to describe love, and that maybe that way we would be more open in expressing it.

I'll give you an example. Last weekend I went down to L.A. to visit an old friend of mine. We had been out of touch for many years, and it was all my fault. This friend was my best friend from the time we were in first grade, clear up until my college years. He had become gay just before I became a Seventh-day Adventist. Shortly after I became an Adventist, I stopped communicating with him. Some years later, I was in the mission field in Africa, and my friend found out where I was and sent me a letter to rekindle our friendship. Sad to say, because my mindset was so traditional, I responded very coldly that I did not want to still be friends with him because of our differences. That was about twelve years ago. Since then, I have changed my mind about a lot of things. I mellowed out over the years, and learned that I don't have to try to change other people, I don't have to insist that they be what I am in order to love them- agape or phileo. The conditional (are you with us or are you against us) kind of love is not pleasing to Jesus- He certainly did not practice it. If one says, "God is love," and yet they love with that ugly, conditional kind of love, they ought not to be surprised when people become indifferent or antagonistic to their religion.

Then recently, my friend found my e-mail, and he reached out to me again. He had been in the process of remodeling his home, and he came across some old papers, including some I had written, and photos and artifacts of our friendship together. It reminded him how much he used to enjoy my company and my strange sense of humor and the creative and crazy things we did together. I was really touched by the e-mail, and at the same time chagrined and shamed because of my former intolerance. I called him, and we have since restarted what is a very warm friendship. I hug him when I see him. He drove up to see me and my wife, and see our offices and our home. And last Friday, I drove down to Hollywood, and I got to see his business and his home. I was really impressed by his creativity and ingenuity, and how much God had blessed him with a fun and easy life. He had folowed the things that interested and stimulated his imagination, and had achieved something wonderful, and I told him admiringly how impressed I was. My friendship with him will never again depend upon his sexual orientation, or his opinion of Christianity or SDA, and his frienship with me will be likewise. Each of us drove quite a distance to see each other at a time when gas was expensive. I don't know if that's agape or phileo- but it was demonstrated by action. I'm not gay, but I love my gay friend, I really do, and I'm sure he loves me. It's more than mere "respect," or "tolerance" or even "acceptance."

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Tela,

Moriah wants you to know that since the day you posted this thread it has not ceased to marvel upon this theme and to see it arise again and again in various ways. What a wonderful and power-packed chapter bes John 21, so much to ponder and pray about. Thank you for the wonderful gift of insight you have shared bringing this chapter to life for Moriah.