Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Considering it becomes impossible to have coherent conversation where too many derails have occurred, Moriah can't say that it blames you.And how exactly would you answer someone with the questions that you posed. Just curious.
Sorry if you already did this - I haven't followed the whole thread.
Some people starve to death, some don't..... some people are killed in crashes, some aren't..... how do you explain that?
so your explanation would be that not only does God choose not to protect, He also allows the Devil to kill people.... interesting indeed....
Are you suggesting that "this" is the answer?
Not sure I would blame anyone who decides to "not" accept such a fickle god......
I am not sure what the answer is Stormy, I do know we lie about HIM a lot....
We have not gotten the right idea about HIM and some times we run what has always been said instead of making sure we got it right and or have made sure it makes sense.....
BTJMO.....
not much comfort for those being beat down, homeless, or losing life and limb..... Satan..... I suspect because of some of the answers that have been offered so far that people ignore what christians have to say.....
I agree God is selective. But that in noway suggest that God does not care or is not watching. And I am comfortable with that Idea. Its just that God is seeking to bring us to a better place. Some do suffer more than others in this world. Some of us have a harder cross to bear and this present world is not our home. Its about the inner man and his relationship with God. The conditions and situations of this world only strengthen or weaken a persons faith in God. So while we all suffer, the suffering is for a purpose, and is not left un-noticed by God.
It depends what you mean by sin. Separation? The manifest, opposite polarity of light? A cosmic virus? Action against divine will? Incompleteness?
Well, they share qualities, but are not at all identical. For instance, a cosmology, like polarities existing below the line of creation, is highly systemic. Slamming the door in someone's face is highly discrete. But the latter doesn't necessarily stem from the former. You might have slammed the door to save their life - but they still have a broken nose, and may or may not ever know the root of the action.
This is important, because many of the things we have done that appeared to be in alignment with Divine Will were not - we couldn't see all that the particular action was connected to from our limited perspective.
As you suggested, many of the mysterious happenings attributed to the gods by various peoples are now well-understood in other ways. This is still true regarding the role of Satan. We haven't come all that far.
Here's an example demonstrating this ambiguity.
HURRICANE KATRINA
1. Caused by God to punish gays.
2. Caused by sin - or Satan.
3. Caused by low pressure areas and rising water vapor.
Some answers seem to suggest that a loving God allows suffering so that those who get through it will appreciate "heaven." Other answers seem to suggest that God allows satan to have his way with humanity, though I am not sure way..... In essence the answers seem to suggestGod is a sadist i.e. He is delighted when humans suffer.....
Glad to hear your not an atheist!
I guess I gave you a brief synopsis of how I view God and the suffering in this world.
As far as what some Christians may say about God, as in your quotes, I take no responsibility. Christianity has gone too far towards pop psychiatry and platitudes as far as I am concerned. A lot of what is written is cute or comforting, but theologically vacant.
I guess I don't feel the need to reconcile what others make up.
God bless! Ricker
So do you think then that all our experience bes purely subjective in this regard? Whether God protects us or not?
You have great courage to raise these questions Stormy.
Actually? No.
Separation face to face ensued as part of the act of creation itself. To make man, God had to separate, and make something alive and sentient what bes Not-God.
Separation back to back ensued after they ate the fruit and tasted the flavor of their own unbelief. Immediately they no longer trusted Him, and hid.
The manifest, opposite polarity of light would be darkness, which itself bes created by God. The act of creating light also creates darkness, the concept of what we have where light bes not. God created it, so it cannot be "sin".
A cosmic virus ensued when pain and confusion first arose in Lucifer's experience. Sin truly has no explanation, not even the rebellion of Lucifer because sin CAUSED Lucifer to rebel. The virus spontaneously mutated into existence at the Wrong from the Beginning. (Can go into more detail on this if anyone bes interested but that would be too long for this post)
Action against Divine Will -- you bes kidding right? Does anyone really have so much unbelief that they imagine such a critter even EXISTS in this universe? The entire creation bes subject to God and as such, to His will, period, whether it appears to be so or not, whether we like what we see when we say that or not. Action against Divine Will simply cannot exist, period. Action against Divine Ideal? Of course. That would be .......... Incompleteness. And so we come full circle.
thanks Moriah for your comments, you have understood the issues I have raised.....loving parents will not stand by and watch as their child (or children) are harmed or traumatized. Loving parents will not give permission for another person to deliberately harm or kill their children..... yet christians have no problem (apparently) believing that God (Our Father) will do just that.... so there has to be some theological or mental gymnastics to reconcile these two concepts....
I agree. However, I note that you've raised some of life's most difficult questions. I suspect that none of us can form coherent responses to them that accurately capture who God is or explain why He does what He does. I would suspect that even if you were to attempt to answer the questions in your OP, your answer would fall short. So perhaps we're all in the same boat when it comes to some of these big questions. We don't understand as much as we think we do.
BFA
true, I don't have the answers, but I like to explore the issues.... my point remains though, there are things that people say about God which are not true given what we see around us..... for those who are experiencing suffering, it would be callous to suggest that they have not prayed for relief only to find none... Did God not hear their cries? See their tears? Watch as their lives have been damaged sometimes to the point that normality is only a dream?
I certainly don't mean to downplay the point you're making. It is a valuable point.
Rather, I'm merely suggesting that, if anyone does attempt to answer your questions, we realize that such attempt is going to fall short in some way. After all, we're grappling with some things we don't fully understand. And yet we have faith, even though we don't understand.
BFA
Have any of YOU ever had -- literally -- "the sacred TORN from your life -- and you survive" -?????
Because Moriah has, in the most literal and visceral and all-encompassing way possible.
He never intended us to eat from the tree that created dualism.
And now, for a response to the song above............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHdcyue0bSw
seriously what else you gonna do? His hand strikes down, His hand raises up. He bes God, we bes not. We have everything in existence we could possibly want or need including darkness and delight and danger if you want that kind of thing, what MORE could He do? A REAL world not a video game one. Where lives count and matter because they can be lost so easily. Where every fiber in the tapestry of reality spells a new lesson, fresh wine for a fresh wineskin.
What would be your explanation, then? That those who have suffered deserved to?
There is a creative tension between the state something is in and the more whole state it is moving toward. That it is incomplete does not mean that it is sinful. It's easy to mistake something that is uncomfortable for something that is bad.
I suspect Heaven isn't easy peasy.
Do you mean in the Bible? In Christianity? This is not true in many places - here's one.
Yin Yang - opposites are complementary and contained in one another. This is why there's a little bit of black inside of the white half - and a little bit of white inside the black half.
We don't say the negative terminal (black) of a car battery is bad - it's complementary with the positive terminal (white). This is the nature of polarity.
Please explain how sin causes natural disasters and accidents. Please. We would really like to know. You cannot expect any rational mind to believe for one second that everyone caught in a disaster has somehow sinned their way there and earned it. Because if you contend that, we haves scriptures to cut right through that lie.
The problem of Theodicy, it has recently learned, bes the only argument atheists claim to fully demonstrate and prove that God does not exist. Other arguments merely propose to show that belief in God bes unnecessary or pointless or whatever but the theodicial one goes the full distance.
Can't remember the exact words for it but it bes framed as a series of four statements about which if any single one of them bes not true it means God cannot exist, and only 3 of them can be true without negating the fourth or something like that (sorry cant remember exact wording). One of the statements asserts there bes a God. Another asserts omnipotence, another asserts omni-benevolence, can't recall the fourth (if remembering correctly here and there bes 4, not 3).
It functions similar to the triangle of expectations, which says you can have 2 of these 3 but not all three: fast, cheap, good (you can have it fast & cheap, won't be good; you can have it good & cheap, won't be fast; you can have it fast & good, but won't be cheap!)
For a theist the argument can be circumvented by arguing back that the premise bes flawed (based on a specific understanding of God and/or not taking into account other nuances, etc.) but given the parameters of basic theism the argument holds pretty sound (unfortunately for theists).
The more I read the more I wonder........
Stormy, thanks again for bringing this up..........
Avonia, thank you, you indeed bring a breath of fresh air......
Moriah, you are a awesome, I love it! keep it coming.........
Aza.... you are something else..........
I dd not intend to purposefuly single out ONLY certain contributors to this "discussion..."
I just noticed that some things just do NOT make much sense to the "un-churched"....... or the "un-christian..."
Some of the "explanations" are exactly the reason some of our bro/sis prefer to be as far away from "us" as they can.......
I just want to add that HE created BOTH black/white, dark/light and pronounced them BOTH............
Ready.....................?
Here it comes.....................
G O O D!!!
Would it be arrogant at all to suggest that for some questions, those not directly experiencing the ramifications thereof, nor having genuine heart-wrung compassion toward those who do, should politely leave for others to wrestle instead of offering the same tiresome and detached platitudes -- and embroiling themselves in judgment of another's character, motives, intents, whatever, in the process -- which in turn comes across as calloused and abusive toward those affected and afflicted?
Or would it be more accurate to state that these questions affect us all because to some degree everyone has been afflicted, everyone has tasted suffering?
Not aimed @ BFA, just musing here. Well aware its own answers fall drastically short but then again being stuck trying to explain that God has ordained you to be the Habitation of Demons and on rare blessed occasions you actually find yourself not only totally OK with that but awestruck in love toward Him that He would make you of all women most blessed? That just gets too many flavors of weird for most ppls to parse what bes not extreme mystics with head in the spirit realm nearly 24/7 themselves.
Walking apocalypse and IJ process in a sense, living portal to both realms, just wish others could put it to better use than they do. Most think it exists for being spat upon, scathed and reviled. What a waste of God's handiwork.What a loss of opportunity for them, too.
RND you have sidestepped the issue.... the issue is simple, Christians say God will take care of you, that you can trust God, yet we see daily horrific suffering.... so either God will or God will not provide care.... or maybe there is another possibility....
yes you have side stepped the issue and instead have attempted to advocate God's position from what you believe is his view..... If God says he will take care of you, and there are plenty of bible texts that suggest that, are you saying that those assurances are conditional? Might not be in this life? That the promise will be made good as He decides? If that is what you are suggesting, what good is the promise of protection if you may or may not be protected? Does God have to justify himself? If he makes a promise why shouldn't he?
exactly..... the discussion would sound totally different from Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, Afghanistan, etc....
StormyOne said:Originally Posted by mva1985
Jurors cringed, cried and some desperately looked away as they were shown a series of deeply disturbing and graphic videos taken by a convicted child killer as he tortured, sexually abused and nearly killed a 9-year-old boy.or do you think that phrase will help this girl?
Joseph Edward Duncan III, acting as his own attorney, had argued against playing the videos, saying it would turn jurors "into my victims" as they decide whether he should be executed.
Duncan kidnapped the boy, Dylan Groene, and his sister, Shasta, in May 2005 after murdering their older brother, their mother and her fiance in the Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, area. The two young children were taken deep into the Lolo National Forest, where they endured weeks of horrendous abuse at Duncan's hands.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/21/duncan...ref=mpstoryview
First he saw the girl's eyes: dark and wide, unfocused, unblinking. She wasn't looking at him so much as through him.Sorry MVA, to me those kinds of answers seem inadequate....
She lay on a torn, moldy mattress on the floor. She was curled on her side, long legs tucked into her emaciated chest. Her ribs and collarbone jutted out; one skinny arm was slung over her face; her black hair was matted, crawling with lice. Insect bites, rashes and sores pocked her skin. Though she looked old enough to be in school, she was naked — except for a swollen diaper.
"The pile of dirty diapers in that room must have been 4 feet high," the detective said. "The glass in the window had been broken, and that child was just lying there, surrounded by her own excrement and bugs."
When he bent to lift her, she yelped like a lamb. "It felt like I was picking up a baby," Holste said. "I put her over my shoulder, and that diaper started leaking down my leg."
The girl didn't struggle. Holste asked, What's your name, honey? The girl didn't seem to hear.
He searched for clothes to dress her, but found only balled-up laundry, flecked with feces. He looked for a toy, a doll, a stuffed animal. "But the only ones I found were covered in maggots and roaches."
http://www.tampabay.com/features/hum...icle750838.ece
God knows more about suffering then we will ever know. I have faith that He is doing the right thing.
Exactly. But I was curious what RND's take was since he added one more layer and compounded it with "character."
Stormy, this is an example of how a really good question in an OP often rapidly expands the conversation!
I wonder if those who are experiencing trauma have the same view....
That's good. And more is asked of us - knowledge. Faith is meant to be a bridge to greater knowing. Not the fuel of stasis.
Of course, once we cross the bridge, we will still exercise faith - just on a new spectrum.
Having faith that His eye is on the sparrow is not a substitute for trying to understand why people are suffering and what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.
I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:Christians say God will take care of you, that you can trust God, yet we see daily horrific suffering.... so either God will or God will not provide care.... or maybe there is another possibility....
Having faith that His eye is on the sparrow is not a substitute for trying to understand why people are suffering and what we can do to help our brothers and sisters.
I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.
The following day, Avonia addressed (c):
exactly lil sis..... good catch......and insightful too....I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.
The following day, Avonia addressed (c):
the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....That's the question, isn't it? How does one define God and distinguish Him, if at all, from creation? Is it appropriate to claim that (a) God has acted, or (b) God hasn't acted? Is it appropriate to expect marked extraterrestrial intervention of any kind if one hasn't first clarified who/what God is or what His relationship to our action, inaction, experience, or existence is?
An assumption that God is Other and apart leads to requests for Him to "come, look, and see."
That's the question, isn't it? How does one define God and distinguish Him, if at all, from creation?
Is it appropriate to claim that (a) God has acted, or (b) God hasn't acted?
Is it appropriate to expect marked extraterrestrial intervention of any kind if one hasn't first clarified who/what God is or what His relationship to our action, inaction, experience, or existence is?
An assumption that God is Other and apart leads to requests for Him to "come, look, and see."
the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....
I thought it was interesting that when this post was quoted again, that all-important last phrase was ignored. The post presents at least three options:
(a) God will do X
(b) God will not do X
(c) There is another possibility outside of the binary of Yes/No.
The following day, Avonia addressed (c):
Yes BUT.the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....
I just came upon this thread and I confess that I have thus far only read the first 3 pages of replies - I apologize in advance if my post is redundant.
an explanation for this?
This is often called "The Wounded Healer."I know that in my own life, the sexual abuse that I went through as a child (and the aftermath lived out in my lifestyle as an adult) have given me a deeper compassion for others and a deeper understanding of the nature of forgiveness.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?