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Resha Caner

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I've seen a few scientific studies on how mistakes may or may not be beneficial. But I haven't really seen a good scientific definition of "mistake."

Methinks it may be because of a very slippery elephant in the room, but let us see what spin people might give to the word.

Here are some possibilities:

1) Mistakes don't exist. It is an outmoded concept from before science came to the fore.
2) A mistake is a moral judgement, and therefore outside the scientific magesteria (per Gould's NOMA idea).
3) A mistake is a difference between a standard set by a subject (or subjects) and an object.
4) A mistake is a colloquial way of expressing the concept of randomness.
5) ?
 

Resha Caner

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This is one of many terms that could not be defined without an absolute standard. And, an absolute standard does not exist without getting into a religion.

So, it can not be defined.

Hmm. I guess you'll need to help me distinguish those things that require absolute standards and those that do not.
 
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Resha Caner

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variant

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Well my post was more of a "where are you comeing at this from" inquiry.

From a philosophical basis:

I think "mistakes" are probably fundamental to consciousness, in that consciousness requires an A = B sort of symbolic abstraction in order to work at all.

Once you've made that step and start having complex symbolic thoughts your system of symbolism needs to be self consistent organized upon fundamental rules. Any break in this consistency means a mistake has occurred OR the entire system is wrong.

The study you posted shows that the brain immediately tries to fit the current experience into the body of experience and tags it with a neurotransmitter to signify whether it "fits" or not.

I work with statistical models that do the same thing abstractly which is where I come from.

Most of my corrilational analysis is done via this mathamatical procedure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_component_analysis

Where data is analyzed for it's fit to a mathematical model and a prediction is made, which can be "correct" or "incorrect" with regard to arbitrary confidence limits.
 
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Resha Caner

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Since this is the science forum, I was trying not to make that step (the philosophical one). Rather, I'm asking the prior question: where does the philosophical concept of a "mistake" come from? Can we pin it to a scientific (or dare I say "natural") phenomenon?

The study you posted shows that the brain immediately tries to fit the current experience into the body of experience and tags it with a neurotransmitter to signify whether it "fits" or not.

I guess what I keyed on in that study was that the subject was taught to identify what was "correct." The study notes that "correct" equates to "desired." Hmm. I see a circle of logic forming here.

I understand that they are discussing the patterns that develop in the neurons, but those patterns fail to explain why something that doesn't fit is a mistake. It seems they have adopted #3 from my list, and it's a reasonable thing to do. But does that make the others in the list unreasonable? I don't think so.

I work with statistical models ... [Principal Component Analysis]

Cool. I've used POD in my work.
 
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variant

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Philosophy comes before science when you ask a basic enough question. Science is a philosophy after all. A methodological philosophy of controlled testing for the uncovering of knowledge.

But what you asked, It's more of a philosophical question in my mind.

The answer in my estimation is that a mistake is something that doesn’t fit, something that is inconsistent with data, something that is not useful. Leads one to be mislead or otherwise non functional.

So, it is going to be a question of value which is never going to be clear as it is based in both individual perception and shared experience.

So, science can not necessarily answer the question for you "what is a mistake" it can however help you find out what is true.

I guess what I keyed on in that study was that the subject was taught to identify what was "correct." The study notes that "correct" equates to "desired." Hmm. I see a circle of logic forming here.

But it is true that value is what we desire, and desire can be arbitrary, therefore things labeled correct can be incorrect. They are "correct" in the arbitrary context but when applied as a standard in objective reality they conflict, so they are incorrect.

But what you've noticed is that: You can teach false things!

You can get a dog to salivate on command with a dinner bell. There’s no objective link between the dinner bell and the food that generally comes with it they are just two experiences that the dogs brain has fit together. Humans can be taught to do this too and their brain's neurotransmitters will react accordingly to the scheme you give them.

Abstraction is free to be arbitrary and still consistent. We do it all the time with games.


It's a "mistake" because of the rules. Just like moving your piece four spaces when there is a six on the dice. The game may be arbitrary, but the rules within it can still be consistent.

A mistake is always going to be an inconsistancy between an outcome or an answer and some standard.

The study you posted is deliberately arbitrary.

 
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juvenissun

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Hmm. I guess you'll need to help me distinguish those things that require absolute standards and those that do not.

Anything which can be described by science does not need an absolute standard. They can be relative.

Take the mistake as an example, if I set a measurement and you did not meet the requirement, then I can say you made a mistake. Everyone will know what the mistake means in that case.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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This is one of many terms that could not be defined without an absolute standard. And, an absolute standard does not exist without getting into a religion.

So, it can not be defined.

This makes sense but my spidey senses are telling me there is a little more to it.
 
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Resha Caner

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I would agree with you that science cannot make any absolute claims, but I don't know that everyone would agree with you ... or even if they do, people often give the impression that they accept science as absolute. I could show you many dogmatic statements being made in this forum about the undeniable truth of evolution.

Still, I don't understand why "mistake" has to have an absolute standard. Variant has defined it with a relative standard.
 
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Resha Caner

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Philosophy comes before science when you ask a basic enough question. Science is a philosophy after all. A methodological philosophy of controlled testing for the uncovering of knowledge.

Agreed. But not everyone in this forum seems to accept that, so I guess we needed to get that out in front of us as something we agree on.

But what you asked, It's more of a philosophical question in my mind.

Well, let's try to keep it of the scientific brand of philosophy.

So, it is going to be a question of value which is never going to be clear as it is based in both individual perception and shared experience.

Everything you say from here on is an argument for relativity ... not an Einsteinian relativity, but more of a moral relativity. I'm trying to pull this question back to a scientific basis. Maybe the key in what you said is that a "mistake" makes something "nonfunctional." But, again, that seems to me to be a value judgement. Is there really anything that happens in nature that could be objectively defined as nonfunctional? I don't think so.

If so, then what natural phenomena led people to develop the concept of the nonfunctional?

P.S. I don't know if this would be a digression, but I'm starting to suspect that this is related to the conundrum raised by Hawking: if a theory of everything were found, it would need to explain why some people reject the theory.
 
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