Missing the Point

[merseyferrier]

A couple of days ago, a friend of mine (who is a Oneness Pentecostal) and I listened to "Heretics", an interview with Carlton Pearson done by the NPR show This American Life. Pearson, as some of you may know, was once a prominent evangelist who lost favor with the Pentecostal crowd when he revealed that he no longer believed in Hell the way it was taught.

The story goes that Pearson was sitting in his living room, watching a show about starvation in Africa, and he asked God how He could call himself a good god while these people lived lives of suffering and were then sent to burn forever and ever. God began to talk back, and at the end of their conversation God revealed that people create Hell on earth for themselves.

Pearson felt he could back this up with the scriptures (using the original Hebrew and Greek), and began to form this doctrine. People were aghast at the prospect that the people they disliked weren't going to be tortured forever and left in droves.

My friend, who liked Pearson before, now loathes him. He seems to have the idea that Pearson did this because he wanted to attract people to his church by appealing to the "do whatever you like" crowd. He seem to have missed the point entirely; I've listened to the interview numerous times and the motivation behind Pearson's doing this seems to be an attack of empathy.

Why is it that people need Hell to stay good? (As a nontheist, I don't believe in Hell, naturally.) Why is the idea of people NOT being tortured forever so reprehensible? Is it the thirst for revenge? I don't think it's a love of truth, because my friend and the people in his church do not "love" truth -- they believe what the pastor tells them, and if they have questions he can't answer he berates them over the pulpit.

 

[ScottHere]

Merseyferrier -

Some do, but many people do not need Hell to exist to "stay good". Christians try to do good out of gratitude and love for God. I do believe in a Hell. But I don't "need" to believe in it. I don't want anyone to be in eternal torment. I do, however, want justice to be done on evil and those who commit it, such as Hitler, Saddam and Osama. Some believe in the annihilation theory. I don't believe the Bible teaches it.

 

[merseyferrier]

It's just that the lack of empathy on some believers' parts saddens me. People who believe in Hell shouldn't speak of it so lightly, as if it's a regular jail sentence. It seems that all too often the attitude associated with people who preach Hell is smugness -- not sorrow.

I think perhaps the problem is that people don't think of Hell that often. It's sort of like the problem blacks had after the Civil War; it wasn't as if they were regarded in an negative light that was the problem, it was that society treated them as if they didn't exist. For most believers (I'm generalizing, but doing so based on my experience as a Christian and conversations I've had) relegate Hell to the position of a far-off threat, like "if you don't go to college you'll wind up working in McDonalds". It's not with them all of the time, it's not personal. For me it was -- I was raised in the UPCI, and their doctrines that concern getting saved and stayed saved make getting into Heaven near-impossible. For a number of months, I was a Pentecostal who thought he was going to Hell; it became a rather personal subject, and partly the reason why I rejected the faith altogether, rather than just moving to more liberal Christianity.

The only Christians I know who compel to me want to know about their faith are those who can't speak of Hell lightly; those who practically choke up. They're rare -- but they're the only ones who are human enough to talk to. They've maintained that empathy that gives our existance here a sense of worth.

(This isn't to discuss if Hell is fair or what have you, but to address the empathy issue.)

 

[FadingWhispers3]

Well some people believe that eternal punishment for the unsaved is unchangeable fact, some even believe it is well deserved such that for people to be allowed not to suffer so is the exception rather than the norm.

For certain people, the belief is that this teaching will lead some to not take hell seriously (as if those who don't already will if this type of belief did not exist). They believe it is deception that will cause many to be tortured forever. If you believed a teaching will ending up causing eternal torture, perhaps you'd also be horrified at the belief no matter how just the punishment or rationally you yourself arrived at the conclusion that such punishment exists.

*Most* people who believe that eternal punishment exists would prefer no one to suffer it. *Most* people who believe that hell is real would welcome the reality, if such were the case, of no one being tortured.

But some believe that hell is real and that the idea of people not being tortured will cause people to be tortured. You can easily see, then, why certain people behave as they do...

 

[elman]

A couple of days ago, a friend of mine (who is a Oneness Pentecostal) and I listened to "Heretics", an interview with Carlton Pearson done by the NPR show This American Life. Pearson, as some of you may know, was once a prominent evangelist who lost favor with the Pentecostal crowd when he revealed that he no longer believed in Hell the way it was taught.

The story goes that Pearson was sitting in his living room, watching a show about starvation in Africa, and he asked God how He could call himself a good god while these people lived lives of suffering and were then sent to burn forever and ever. God began to talk back, and at the end of their conversation God revealed that people create Hell on earth for themselves.

Pearson felt he could back this up with the scriptures (using the original Hebrew and Greek), and began to form this doctrine. People were aghast at the prospect that the people they disliked weren't going to be tortured forever and left in droves.

My friend, who liked Pearson before, now loathes him. He seems to have the idea that Pearson did this because he wanted to attract people to his church by appealing to the "do whatever you like" crowd. He seem to have missed the point entirely; I've listened to the interview numerous times and the motivation behind Pearson's doing this seems to be an attack of empathy.

Why is it that people need Hell to stay good? (As a nontheist, I don't believe in Hell, naturally.) Why is the idea of people NOT being tortured forever so reprehensible? Is it the thirst for revenge? I don't think it's a love of truth, because my friend and the people in his church do not "love" truth -- they believe what the pastor tells them, and if they have questions he can't answer he berates them over the pulpit.

I agree with you. I had my own realization about the non existence of an afterlife in pain. I believe in God who is loving and in the afterlife with God, but I don't believe in an afterlife in pain. I think we simply cease to exist if we do not exist after this life with God.

 

[merseyferrier]

But some believe that hell is real and that the idea of people not being tortured will cause people to be tortured. You can easily see, then, why certain people behave as they do...

In other words, even if some people live godly lives (for the right reasons), if they go to their grave not vewing a literal Hell as truth, they will go to Hell for not believing Jesus' words -- and some people who are against Pearson think his doctrine is causing people to burn in the Hell they didn't believe in.

I can understand that; the people who are against him for that reason would have a legitimate reason for doing so, so long as their argument against him was based in the Bible (which they see as truth) and they're able to refute his Bible-based arguments. The people who bother me are those who are against Pearson (and others, like the Universalists when they were still a Christian movement) for the wrong reasons -- because they like the doctrine of Hell as a way of "sticking it to" the people they don't like, or because he's simply going against tradition.

 

[TScott]

What about those who believe in Heck?

 

[merseyferrier]

Is that where you have to spend an eternity at a campfire sing-along where the only instruments are banjos and knee-slapping?

 

[TScott]

Is that where you have to spend an eternity at a campfire sing-along where the only instruments are banjos and knee-slapping?

Yes, with the Prince of Insufficient Light!

 

[Emmy]

Dear merseyferrier, Jesus Himself told us, while He lived amongst us, that there is a place in outer darkness, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is the place for men and women, who do not want to repent, who do not want to love God, and love others, as they love themselves. That seems to me straightforward, if I do not want to return to God, my Maker, in whose image I am made, what other place is there? We will live eternally, we will live with God and with our Christian brothers and sisters, how can we do so, if we carry on, as we do on Earth? Selfish, wilful, unloving and holding grudges? Hell, the place of eternal damnation, is the final place for Satan`s own, for Satan`s followers, for all satanic beings, who openly declare themselves as God`s adversaries, God`s usurpers. God, our Creator, loves us, He wants us back with Him, He wants to spend eternity with us. He made us for His Own, He wants us to be perfect, as He is perfect. God is at this very moment in the process of redeeming us, and His Love will accomplish, what His enemies tell us, is impossible. The Universe is immeasurable, and God will work His purpose out. I say this humbly and with assurance, merseyferrier, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[KCDAD]

Yes he did. Jesus constantly spoke spiritual truths using worldly metaphors and parables. He also said he was a gate and a shepherd.
Perhhaps that place of outer darkness has to do with spiritual solitude and not physical solitude. (Don't we all know very socially gregarious peole that are miserably lonely and "lost"?)