miracle of miracles

[Top Cat]

'...Pharoah then summoned the wise men and sorcerers, and the egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts; Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs'. (ex 7v11-12)

' For false Christ's and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible' (Matt 24v24)

Is there some formula for recognising if a miracle is from God or from those who are trying to deceive?
Its easy to read such stories as from exodus and know they are from God but the people who Jesus is talking about sound like they may be pretty convincing.
I always thought it would be obvious such as considering the impact of the miracle (whom does it draw worship towards; an idol, a man or another God).
Also looking at the fruits of that person's work as a bad tree cannot produce bad fruit.
Trouble is tat it gets more and more difficult to decipher these people as so often now, people are drawn not to the truth but what they want to hear. A person does not have to be an unpleasant person to know in order to produce lies and confusion. And in that case it will be us, the ones who do not hold back on the truth no matter how unpleasant or unwelcome that will be held in contempt and be the ones who are seen as a result as being unpleasant to know.
How do we combat such beliefs in false miracles.
For example in Dublin there was a statue of Mary who was crying. Most of my family is Roman Catholic, particularly my gran and trying to constantly tell her to pray to Jesus and not to saints feels like i'm being totally intolerant and unpleasant, particularly when she gets excited about these kinds of miracles. I feel that its encouraging worship of an idol, but many see it as a miracle of God. (I don't know how they feel justified in bowing down to the idol in question). But how do you argue effectively.
My gran also showed me a photo years ago of an image of Mary's face above Loureds. At the time I passionately felt that this was a false sign, feeling again that it drew worhip towards Mary and not Jesus. After all, Mary nor any of the saints died for our sins, and there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus.
Many may say I am bigotted. But I am truly concerned about this.
What do others think?

Top Cat

 

[inhimitrust]

Jesus mentioned to the priest and rulers that no sign would be given but the sign of Jonah.
Those that are into Mary "worship" and others deceased saints can be drawn to see images or signs that are not biblical and I take them with a grain of salt. We are to worship and pray to God only thru His son Jesus Christ, anything more than that can turn in idolatry worship and allow the mind to stray from God and His son.
I really don't understand about the catholic faith that much, and since I am strictly non denominational and go by the bible only, I feel God will guide me in His truth thru His written words in the bible and thru His Spirit. I don't put down anyone because of their religious beliefs and if they follow Christ and worship God according to their words in the bible, then they are in the family of God. There is only one true God and creator and the only one we are to worship and pray to, I believe, while acknwldeging Jesus Christ as His Son who came down in the flesh for us.

 

[billwald]

Interesting to me is that good guys make miracles but bad guys make magic.

 

[daveleau]

The advisors to Pharoah in Egypt when Moses was trying to get his people set free are examples of what I think our false prophets will be like. They could turn the water of the Nile red, they could turn a staff into a snake, but they could not bring locusts and other larger miracles that God performed. I think it will be easy for us to see the folly of their attempts to bamboozle us. But, that is from a Christian standpoint. Weak Christians will fall prey, as will the unsaved. Our saving grace is God's love and Scripture.

As for the second part, God does still perform miracles. I can not say whether the statues of Mary that have been seen crying are from God, a hoax or a demonic ploy. I do think you are on the right road of trying to help your family out of their unScriptural ways. You must do it with kindness and by showing them Scripture. Take each incorrect docrine, one at a time over a long period, and show them the folly of it in Scripture. Pray that God will touch their heart and open it to His Word. As for you being bigotted, you are only following what God told you. Point them to Scripture. They can always argue with you, but they can not argue with Scripture.

The rehabilitation of certain groups back into the body more centrally under Christ is a difficult one because the issue is not a conglomeration of small issues, but one very large break in philosophical ideals about the Bible. Catholics are liberal theologians. They doubt the validity of the Bible to different extents. None, really, considers the Bible to be infallible. This is a fundamental issue that is at the core of the problem. One thing you might start off with showing them is the folly of the writers (saints) that they hold so dear. History is filled with very wierd and very wrong theology. Much of it is referenced by the RCC and used to eisegete (read their ideas into Scripture versus taking the meaning out of Scripture). They just assume this person is correct, even though many of them are allegorists (they believe that everything in the Bible is an allegory.) There are so many wierd ideologies that came about between conservative students of the Bible. Do a study of the evolution of theology since Christ died. This is a very valuable item to have to understand how some of the groups out there got so far away from God's Word.

God bless you
Dave

 

[mythbuster]

Because God is so great, His greatest miracle is the one no one can see. The ultimate miracle is only substantiated by faith. Greater than the parting of the Red Sea, greater than stopping the sun in the sky and greater than fires of Elijah.

This is the miracle of regeneration. Where a poor sinner receives the life of God, even God Himself, and is born of God. Today, it is hard to say who has God's life and who does not, but a time will come when God's life will be manifested in His saints to all creation.

In the meantime we live by faith, the faith of the Son of God who loves us and gave Himself up for us so we could have His life.

peace.

 

[prodromos]

Guys, Catholics do not worship Mary (neither do Orthodox for that matter). Any honour and veneration given to the saints (of which Mary is the greatest example) is due to them being in the image and likeness of Christ their creator and redeemer. God is pleased to glorify his saints and it pleases Him when His saints are praised.

I don't know if any of you have children yourselves, but when my children do something good and receive praise for what they did, it fills me with pleasure. How much more so our Heavenly Father when His children receive honour and praise for their efforts on His behalf.

BTW, any veneration or honour given to an image of a saint, is given not to the image but the prototype depicted in the image whether it be an icon or a statue, and as God was pleased to work great miracles through matter in the past, so He continues today.

Moses' staff (many examples)
the brass serpent (Numbers 21:8-9)
Elijah's cloak (2 Kings 2:8,14)
salt (2 Kings 2:21-22)
a pot of oil (2 Kings 4:4-6) BTW, this same miracle occured in a monastery on Mt. Athos
flour (2 Kings 4:41)
the water of the Jordan river (2 Kings 5:14)
the bones of a dead holy man (2 Kings 13:20-21)
the tassel of Jesus' robe (Matthew 9:20-22)
mud (John 9:6)
Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15-16)
handkerchiefs that Peter had touched (Acts 19:11-12)

Plus, the Orthodox and Catholic churches can testify to thousands upon thousands of miracles occuring through the relics of saints or their icons. Its not that we go seeking after miracles, they just occur embarrasingly frequently and consistently throughout the history of the church from Pentacost onwards.

John.