Mid-Acts Five Pointers

billychum · Jan 18, 2006

TheScottsMen said:
Billy, why don't you post some scripture supporting your idea that the preaching of the cross is found in the gospels?

Because that's not my idea and I haven't said that. I'm saying that I believe that someone today could pick up the Bible and read the gospel of Matthew, believe in the death, burial and resurection and be saved. I find it troubling to think that just because the disciples didn't get it, that it means no one else will either.
Billy <><

eph3Nine · Jan 18, 2006

billychum said:
Because that's not my idea and I haven't said that. I'm saying that I believe that someone today could pick up the Bible and read the gospel of Matthew, believe in the death, burial and resurection and be saved. I find it troubling to think that just because the disciples didn't get it, that it means no one else will either.
Billy <><

The disciples didnt get it because it was still a SECRET HID IN GOD...they didnt NEED to get it...they were told what to believe to be saved, and it WASNT the death, burial and resurrection of Christ! Thats the point being made here.

No one is going to be saved by reading the gospel given to Israel...that message doesnt SAVE today!

John just showed you with a myriad of scripture that the focus of Matthews gospel was Jesus being the Son of God....the PROMISED MESSIAH. NOT his death, burial and resurrection at all!

We can ALWAYS look back with hindsight...with the NEW information we have received from PAUL...however thats NOT the information they had then.

billychum · Jan 18, 2006

eph3Nine said:
The disciples didnt get it because it was still a SECRET HID IN GOD...they didnt NEED to get it...they were told what to believe to be saved, and it WASNT the death, burial and resurrection of Christ! Thats the point being made here.

And I agree.

eph3Nine said:
No one is going to be saved by reading the gospel given to Israel...that message doesnt SAVE today!

And I agree, but belief in the message of death, burial and resurection does save. If I hear it from my neighbor, Paul or read about the DBR of Christ in the gospel of Mathew and believe it then what difference does it make?
Billy <><

msortwell · Jan 18, 2006

Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. KJV

Matt 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. KJV

Matt 26:27-28
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. KJV

Matt 16:21
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. KJV

Matt 17:22-23
22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. KJV

Seems like a pretty good description to me. Just how complete do you believe a person's theology has to be in order to be saved?

Blessings,

Mike

billychum · Jan 18, 2006

Thanks everyone for the fellowship and study time, I've learned a lot here. Hope there are no hard feelings. It's 12:00 here and I have to get up in 5 hrs. but as soon as I get my morning coffee I'll be back for a little before work. Thanks again!
Billy <><

Dispy · Jan 19, 2006

msortwell said:
Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. KJV

Matt 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. KJV

Matt 26:27-28
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. KJV

Matt 16:21
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. KJV

Matt 17:22-23
22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. KJV

Seems like a pretty good description to me. Just how complete do you believe a person's theology has to be in order to be saved?

Blessings,

Mike

Luke 18:31-34 31Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

billychum · Jan 19, 2006

Today can't someone be saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ no matter how they got the information?

Billy <><

eph3Nine · Jan 19, 2006

billychum said:
Today can't someone be saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ no matter how they got the information?

Billy <><

Yes, they can. However, the death,burial and resurrection wasnt given as a salvation message, OR the criteria for being saved until Paul. Anyone believing in what they read in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John with the knowledge they find in PAULS letters of the Cross being the finished work of God for mankind, can certainly be saved. Without Pauls letters, the PURPOSE of the Cross would still be HID IN GOD< and a SECRET...and we would all be dead in our sins.

WHY? Because the good news regarding the Cross being the finished work of Christ for ALL was still a SECRET, HID IN GOD. IF the disciples didnt understand it (Luke 18:34), what makes you think others will? God says its the preaching of PAULS gospel that saves, and none other today. Do you think He is mistaken?

Please be honest when you think of what they were told. They were told of the "event". They were not told what the event signified...IDENTIFICATION TRUTHS regarding our being identified with His death, burial and resurrection and made into a NEW CREATION thru that identification and belief were NOT revealed UNTIL PAUL. Simple acknowledgement of the FACT that His death, burial and resurrection took place is NOT saving faith, any more than simply acknowledging Jesus might be the Messiah, but not demonstrating that by being water baptized didnt save the Jew.

billychum · Jan 19, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Yes, they can.

Ah! A compromise maybe. That's good news for anyone that has sat in a pew, come to an alter, been in front of their TV, been in a jail cell, been in a hospital bed or been where ever and cried out to God for help. I'm sure that there have been a lot of people who have been saved without the benefit of a theological understanding.

eph3Nine said:
However, the death,burial and resurrection wasnt given as a salvation message, OR the criteria for being saved until Paul.

Agreed

eph3Nine said:
Anyone believing in what they read in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John with the knowledge they find in PAULS letters of the Cross being the finished work of God for mankind, can certainly be saved.

Agreed

eph3Nine said:
Without Pauls letters, the PURPOSE of the Cross would still be HID IN GOD< and a SECRET...and we would all be dead in our sins.

I'm not yet 100% with you on this one

eph3Nine said:
WHY? Because the good news regarding the Cross being the finished work of Christ for ALL was still a SECRET, HID IN GOD. IF the disciples didnt understand it (Luke 18:34), what makes you think others will?

I never said that they would. I just said that I believe that people can be saved by believing in the DBR of Christ

eph3Nine said:
God says its the preaching of PAULS gospel that saves, and none other today. Do you think He is mistaken?

No I don't think He's mistaken but I do think that "the things which are impossible with men are possible with God" Luke 18:27

eph3Nine said:
Please be honest when you think of what they were told. They were told of the "event". They were not told what the event signified...IDENTIFICATION TRUTHS regarding our being identified with His death, burial and resurrection and made into a NEW CREATION thru that identification and belief were NOT revealed UNTIL PAUL.

I honestly agree with this

eph3Nine said:
Simple acknowledgement of the FACT that His death, burial and resurrection took place is NOT saving faith

No it's not, but if you believe that it was all for your sin's so that you could be reconciled to God it is.

Billy <><

JM · Jan 19, 2006

billychum said:
I wouldn't tell anyone that they couldn't be saved by reading the gospel of Matthew. In the book of Matthew Jesus does in fact die, get buried, and is raised from the dead for the sins of the world. And I think that the mordern day reader can figure out what's going on.
Billy <><

That's correct Billy, thanks.

As for Matt. 5, only God could have spoke those words. I was convinced by Matt. 5 that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh.

Peace.

GLJCA · Jan 19, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Yes, they can. However, the death,burial and resurrection wasnt given as a salvation message, OR the criteria for being saved until Paul. Anyone believing in what they read in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John with the knowledge they find in PAULS letters of the Cross being the finished work of God for mankind, can certainly be saved. Without Pauls letters, the PURPOSE of the Cross would still be HID IN GOD< and a SECRET...and we would all be dead in our sins.

WHY? Because the good news regarding the Cross being the finished work of Christ for ALL was still a SECRET, HID IN GOD. IF the disciples didnt understand it (Luke 18:34), what makes you think others will? God says its the preaching of PAULS gospel that saves, and none other today. Do you think He is mistaken?

Please be honest when you think of what they were told. They were told of the "event". They were not told what the event signified...IDENTIFICATION TRUTHS regarding our being identified with His death, burial and resurrection and made into a NEW CREATION thru that identification and belief were NOT revealed UNTIL PAUL. Simple acknowledgement of the FACT that His death, burial and resurrection took place is NOT saving faith, any more than simply acknowledging Jesus might be the Messiah, but not demonstrating that by being water baptized didnt save the Jew.

Wrong EPH3

Peter preached the death of Christ to the Jews inActs 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Peter taught the burial of Christ to the Jews.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter taught the resurrection of Christ to the Jews
Acts 2:30-31 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I don't know where you came up with this idea but it wasn't from God's Word. Peter preached the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to the Jews therefore you can not say that no one preached it before Paul.

GLJCA

GLJCA · Jan 19, 2006

billychum said:
I'm not yet 100% with you on this one

Good Billy because it is not truth.

Long before Paul came on the scene the truth of the gospel was known to all of the apostles.
In Luke 24 two disciples were walking to Emmaus when Jesus pulled up to them and walked with them. They explained to him the things that had just happened speaking of the crucifixion of Christ. When they finally recognized him he disappear from their sight. They immediately went to share with the other disciples what they had just seen. That is when Jesus appeared before them and showed them His hands and feet. Look at what happen next.
Luke 24:44-47 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These Acts 2 Dispys are trying to tell everyone that the gospel message of the death, burial, and resurrection was not used as a message of salvation until Paul but the Word of God doesn't show that. In fact all through the book of Acts all the apostle preached the same message, the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and faith in His name will bring salvation.

GLJCA

GLJCA · Jan 19, 2006

eph3Nine said:
God says its the preaching of PAULS gospel that saves, and none other today. Do you think He is mistaken?

God never said anything of the sort.

God(Jesus) said in Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Notice Jesus said that this message was to go to ALL NATIONS. Does that mean ALL? YEP it means the Gentile nations also.

Oh and Paul wasn't even present when Christ gave this commission.

GLJCA

eph3Nine · Jan 19, 2006

Street Preacher said:
That's correct Billy, thanks.

As for Matt. 5, only God could have spoke those words. I was convinced by Matt. 5 that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh.

Peace.

Believing that Christ is God in the flesh is NOT the good news that saves! Satan believes this. We need to KNOW what the gospel message IS, folks.

eph3Nine · Jan 19, 2006

I said:
Simple acknowledgement of the FACT that His death, burial and resurrection took place is NOT saving faith

You said:
No it's not, but if you believe that it was all for your sin's so that you could be reconciled to God it is.

Is it? Is believing that Christ died for my sins the gospel message? NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo.

His death paid for all my sin debt. His burial signifies that God actually DID something with the sins He died for....HE put them OUT of HIS sight forever! His resurrection and my belief in it signifies that I believe that God ACCEPTED Christs full payment for all the sins of the world, as if ONE sin was LEFT OUT< HE could NOT have risen from the dead to justify anyone!

All three are the gospel that saves today, and understanding it is part of believing. Do we think that what Christ did on that Cross was ENOUGH? or do I think I must "ADD" something to it? Saving faith says, God did it ALL...I only BELIEVE IT! But you have to realize what it is you are acknowledging...just saying the words "I believe in the death, burial and resurrection" is NOT what is being spoken of here.

GLJCA · Jan 19, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Believing that Christ is God in the flesh is NOT the good news that saves! Satan believes this. We need to KNOW what the gospel message IS, folks.

Apparantly Peter knew the correct gospel for Gentiles as proven in Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

But when Paul did come on the scene he preached the same thing.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Paul taught faith strenghtened with works just like Peter did.

Billy weigh everything that is said from these guys heavily because a lot of what they are telling you is not from God's Word.

GLJCA

eph3Nine · Jan 19, 2006

I think the REAL issue here is that we want to make sure that any hearer today will get a clear presentation of what gospel it IS that saves in todays administration of Gods GRACE. We wont find that gospel in Israels program of times PAST. It is ONLY found in the BUT NOW....the body of truth given to the apostle Paul. NO OTHER dispensation has the good news that was given to Paul for we the Body of Christ. It is to him that the "unsearchable" (untraceable in the OT) riches of Christ are explained and given FOR us.

JM · Jan 19, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Believing that Christ is God in the flesh is NOT the good news that saves! Satan believes this. We need to KNOW what the gospel message IS, folks.

I gave Billy an AMEN, "In the book of Matthew Jesus does in fact die, get buried, and is raised from the dead for the sins of the world." This is what I believed, it's still what I believe, but my faith is deeper now, more detailed if you will.

JM · Jan 19, 2006

GLJCA said:
Wrong EPH3

Peter preached the death of Christ to the Jews inActs 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Peter taught the burial of Christ to the Jews.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter taught the resurrection of Christ to the Jews
Acts 2:30-31 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I don't know where you came up with this idea but it wasn't from God's Word. Peter preached the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to the Jews therefore you can not say that no one preached it before Paul.

GLJCA

eph3nine, when Peter preached his Jewish Gospel to a gentile, was he accursed?

eph3Nine · Jan 19, 2006

Street Preacher said:
I gave Billy an AMEN, "In the book of Matthew Jesus does in fact die, get buried, and is raised from the dead for the sins of the world." This is what I believed, it's still what I believe, but my faith is deeper now, more detailed if you will.

As stated previously, the EVENT was spoken of in Matthew. The PURPOSE of it was NOT, and scripture tells us that the disciples "understood NOT these things". Why? Because the preaching of the Cross was UNIQUE to Paul, and he alone gives us the gospel of the finished work of Calvary for salvation.

Anyone who knows Pauls information can READ INTO Matthew what they know...but it wasnt the good news that saved in Matthew. THEIR good news was believing in the promised MESSIAH and being water baptized for the remission of their sins. NO death, burial and resurrection was given to them as the GOOD NEWS.

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