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Annier, nowadays, just being Jewish and believing in Jesus does not make a Messianic Jew, it makes a Jewish Christian or a Hebrew Christian.
You seem to be confirming that it is a New thing, as you say "nowadays". Well it was not all that long ago that chernoff said this. It was also a show which he was a guest, to speak about the previous "messianic conference which had just finished. The host had attended and they were discussing Messianic judaism. So, I do not know what to make of you all and what you are saying. I have to wonder if you consider the leadership or the messianic jewish aliance, and their messianic conventions, non messianic or what.Annier, nowadays, just being Jewish and believing in Jesus does not make a Messianic Jew, it makes a Jewish Christian or a Hebrew Christian.
Can't there be various opinions here? I mean this is just so strange.Well I strongly think Dr F is misunderstood. Why can't a Jew keep what he can even thougj knowing the Law of Moses is in-operative/not binding.
If you are honest there is sort of a dis-connect an empty 'space' if you will between when the Temple was destroyed and now.
The leaders yes. Those that sat as the high Sanhedrin, as the supreme justices. That would include the sect of the Sadducees as well, and the judicial decisions made from that court body, remained in force by the judges under that court. He did not tell them to listen to the Pharisees as a sect, apart from the Sanhedrin. Would you agree?I did not say He was 100% in agreement with them. But He did say to the Jewish people that the leaders sat in the seat of Moses and they were to do as the leaders bade them do, but the people were not to do as the leaders did (Mt. 23:1-4). And don't order me around, thank you.
Gxg (G²);63496282 said:Good point.
Sadly, whenever this distinction is made, it tends to be the case that those against what actually occurred within early Jewish culture make the false distinction that others are "Hebrew Christians" while others are "Messianic Jews" -
Irony..... I was just (an hour ago) looking up the rabbinic views concerning Ezekiels temple. I did this, in having nothing whatsoever to do with this conversation here..YET, I learned they almost did not include that book in their canon.Gxg (G²);63496282 said:a concept that was never present in the early body of believers nor logical when it came to the many ways things were seen within the Jewish culture. There was support of the Law and yet distinctions were made...
Hashem has the power to do whatsoever He pleases is absolutely true, but that is the convenient reasoning most christians chose to use to explain the abolition of what He has stated as permanent. Just as you have done.
The problem with the above sort of reasoning is if all of the "forevers" found in the Torah are not really for forever, what things promised when and since Yeshua walked this earth as "forever" aren't really for forever? That kind of inconsistent god, I can do without quite nicely, thank you.
Why are you flying a messianic scroll when you are a traditional, mainstream christian? (Just being Jewish and believing in Jesus does not automatically make you a Messianic Jew. It simply makes you a Jew who believes in Jesus.)
wherean
Sacrifice and circumcision on the eighth dayexisted before the temple was built.
So why do we need the temple to perform sacrifice and circumcision. Please show me where
Any mainstream Christian teach circumcision and temple
Worship without the temple. In fact that is dispensation excuse
For not keeping torah they claim to need the temple
To kerp torah. No ancient jew would agree with that.
The title of this site is not in the bottom right corner. I see nowReally, now ... so what's this on the bottom right of your site's banner?:
The conditions of vs ten and eleven must be fully met. Israel must dwellBefore the tabernacle and first temple, sacrifices were allowed to be made wherever the person happened to be. This was no longer allowed when they went into the promised land.
Deut. 12:10-14
10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:
12 And ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:
14 But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy
burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
Before the tabernacle and first temple, sacrifices were allowed to be made wherever the person happened to be. This was no longer allowed when they went into the promised land.
Deut. 12:10-14
10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:
12 And ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:
14 But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
Irony..... I was just (an hour ago) looking up the rabbinic views concerning Ezekiels temple. I did this, in having nothing whatsoever to do with this conversation here..YET, I learned they almost did not include that book in their canon.
The reason being, the laws found there were different from the law from Moses, even to the point of being in contradiction to it. Then it was brought up how the law of the Messianic kingdom would be different from the law from Moses. This from first century Judaism!!!!. So how on earth is AF, going apart from Judaism anyway? Who is, and who is not speaking in the context of first century Judaism? It is utterly mind boggling.
Sadly, what seems to be the case is that many assume "replacement" if noting where certain things within the Mosaic that were in place are not in operation during the time we live in - and sadly, even in thinking it's "replacement", they don't realize where they have adopted a system of replacement themselves to replace what was always discussed in Judaism during/before the time of Christ - for there were always differing views on the progression of commands in each era God's people lived in....in the same way that a U.S Constitution goes through changes and applications differ as time goes on.As I said the problem that most would have with DR F is that the Law of Moses is not applicable/not binding today, meaning right now in this age.
As someone once said... don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...Gxg (G²);63497977 said:Sadly, what seems to be the case is that many assume "replacement" if noting where certain things within the Mosaic that were in place are not in operation during the time we live in - and sadly, even in thinking it's "replacement", they don't realize where they have adopted a system of replacement themselves to replace what was always discussed in Judaism during/before the time of Christ - for there were always differing views on the progression of commands in each era God's people lived in....in the same way that a U.S Constitution goes through changes and applications differ as time goes on.
Some of it is interesting, seeing how there were times that the rules of sacrifices had times others did not do accordingly - yet the Lord exalted them. David making sacrifices himself rather than having the priests do so comes immediately to mind (more in #40 ) even though Saul got in trouble for doing the same - and with sacrificing wherever one was as all the Patriarchs (including Job) and others did in Genesis, it is interesting to see the background behind that (more shared in #1/#25/ #61 / #62 #65 ). For in the Diaspora era, when the Jewish believers were no longer seeing the temple as the central place for ministry - as with the account of Stephen when he spoke in-depth on sacrifices and what the Lord viewed on with temples in Acts 6-7 - many no longer had an ideology that sacrifices had to be made solely within the Temple system during their day. And the same is said as it pertains to gathering ( #4/#21/ #23 /#29 #39 ) - in light of the example of the Lord when he lived and the variety of places he operated. It's why the early body of believers could spread as far as they did - and see the Lord do amazing things. They were prepared to adapt and see a differing form of application.Before the tabernacle and first temple, sacrifices were allowed to be made wherever the person happened to be. This was no longer allowed when they went into the promised land.
Deut. 12:10-14
10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:
12 And ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:
14 But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
Well it was not all that long ago that chernoff said this. It was also a show which he was a guest, to speak about the previous "messianic conference which had just finished. The host had attended and they were discussing Messianic judaism. So.
Originally Posted by Qnts2
Copyright © 2009, Ariel Ministries. O-MJH.PDF Messianic Jewish History - OUTLINE, PAGE 7
1809 - The London Society for the Promotion of Christianity Amongst the Jews founded
1813 – 41 Jewish believers form a fellowship in London, Beni Abraham
1823 – A group of Jewish believers and their supporters attempt to purchase 20,000 acres in southern New Jersey for a communal farm to house persecuted Jewish believers.
1840 – Sixty prominent Jewish believers in England publish a defense of the Jewish community against the false charge of the “blood libel”
1842 – Jewish believer Michael Solomon Alexander establishes a major protestant church in Jerusalem
1866 - The Hebrew Christian Alliance was formed in London.
1885 – Joseph Rabinowitz begins a genuinely Messianic Jewish, independent Jewish congregation in Kishinev
1885 – Jacob Freshman establishes a group of Jewish believers with Presbyterian help in New York City
1894 – Rabbi Leopold Cohn establishes a Jewish outreach in Brooklyn that would eventually become The American Board of Missions to the Jews, now known as Chosen People Ministries.
1915 – The Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA) was established with Sabbati Rohold, born into an Orthodox Jewish home in Jewish Palestine as its first President. The “driving motive” of the early HCAA was deemed to be evangelism. In 1917, the HCAA began publishing the HCA Quarterly with a Yiddish supplement. The early HCAA was a fellowship of Jewish believers, and issued statements viewing with caution or outright opposition the establishment of Congregations that were specifically intended to maintain a Jewish culture. HCAA members were generally allied with Protestant Christian churches, although a minority within the HCAA favored a Messianic Jewish stance.
1920’s - The HCAA took part in the fight against rising anti-Semitism, strongly denouncing Henry Ford’s distribution of the hoax “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.
1930’s - The HCAA protested the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, and called attention to the plight of the “one and three-quarter million Christians of Jewish descent, who were all treated as Jews while the Jews of Germany considered them Christians”. They had trouble finding relief. The HCAA helped many of them to relocate, and continued to aid victims of the Holocaust after World War II.
1934 - The First Hebrew Christian Church of Chicago was established by Presbyterians. It had a Christian worship service with a Jewish “flavor,” and was headed by David Bronstein. A similar congregation exists in Los Angeles.
1939 – On the even of WWII, over a million people of Jewish origin are attending churches & fellowships in Europe
1938 thru 1945 – Between 100,000 and 250,000 Jewish believers die during The Holocaust.
1950’s – Congregations and stable fellowships of believers practicing Jewish culture exist in Baltimore, Detroit, Toronto, New York, Newark, Philadelphia, Chicago and Los Angeles.
1966 – 1968 - Under the auspices of the HCAA, the Young Hebrew Christian Alliance (YHCA) was started by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Manny Brotman & Joe Finkelstein. Holding its first separate conference in 1970, they chose Messiah College in Pennsylvania for their meeting place. The entire Alliance would eventually meet there.
1970’s – This time period would see very large numbers of Jewish young people coming to faith
1971 - Martin Chernoff, a Jewish believer and Assemblies of God pastor, became the President of the HCAA. Chernoff would go on to lead Beth Yeshua Congregation of Philadelphia. His Pentecostal background influenced Messianic Judaism, and that of his sons Joel and David would continue to shape the Alliance for decades to come.
1973 – Moishe Rosen establishes ‘Jews for Jesus’, an evangelistic mission outreach.
1975 – In a divided vote, the HCAA voted to change its’ name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA). It signaled an intentional move toward unique self-identity for Jewish believers, semi-separate from the larger church body.
1977 – Ariel Ministries founded by Arnold Fruchtenbaum with dual goals of Jewish evangelism & discipleship.
1979 - The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) was formed with Daniel Juster as President.
1980’s – Expansion of the Messianic Movement, growing use of American synagogue culture
1998 - Nazarene Yisrael Alliance is formed as an umbrella for groups teaching the “Two-House” false doctrine that Gentile believers in their groups are of the Tribe of Ephraim. Many in these groups reject the teaching of the Trinity and promote obligatory Torah observance. They influence over 20% of Congregations and recruit deceptively using various names. Notables include: Michael Rood, Marshall Koniuchowsky, Batya Wooten, Ed Chumney, Monte Judah, Brian Samtur and James Trimm, who all maintain separate organizations. The Internet fuels their popularity.
2003 – The Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC) founded by ‘Grace oriented’ Jewish believers who cite the “need for a new association of messianic congregations, those who would continue to hold to a messiah centered, joyfully Jewish, grace embracing messianic Judaism.” www.MessianicAssociation.org
Gxg (G²);60539337 said:Joel Chernoff, who was one of the Pioneers of the Messianic Jewish movement, spoke on the issues raised by Ariel ministries back in 2008 when discussing the reality of the ways the Messianic Jewish movement developed....as seen here. Television - Programs - Transcript - Messianic 1: The Messianic Jewish Movement..." / Television - Programs - Transcript - Messianic 2: Messianic Jewish ..and he also shared way back in 2006 as well:
Another one of the Messianic Jewish members on the board mpossoff noted before how he was associated with Messianic teacher David Chernoff...with with David noting many of the same things as brother Joel Chernoff--as seen here at Congregation Beth Yeshua. As he noted best:
Still as valid today as it was decades ago..and that understanding has pretty much remained constant for years since, even today. Pretty much goes right back into the bottom line reality of what has often been noted multiple times over the decades/accepted by most Messianic Jews, as it concerns the entire intent behind MJism in reaching the Jewish people but not necessarily considering itself as disconnected from Christianity...and instead seeing itself as a restoration of Biblical Jewish Christianity, to be exact..Is it Jewish to Believe in Jesus?
To some, the concept of a Jew believing in Yeshua seems to be a contradiction. The reason is, many people have a dichotomy set up in their minds. On the one hand, you have Jews and Judaism and on the other hand, Christians and Christianity. You are either one or the other...so the thinking goes.
But this simple dichotomy is in reality not so simple. If we go back 2000 years we find that Yeshua was a Jew living in a Jewish land among Jewish people. All the apostles were Jewish as well as the writers of the New Covenant and for many years this faith in Yeshua was strictly a Jewish one. From the Book of Acts and other historical evidence, many believe that in the first century there were literally hundreds of thousands of Messianic Jews (Acts 2:41, 2:47, 4:4, 6:7, 9:31, 21:20). In addition, there were Messianic Synagogues scattered throughout the Roman Empire and beyond (James 1:1, 2:2).
These first century Messianic Jews remained highly loyal to their people. Whether it was Jewish to believe in Yeshua was never an issue. Of course it was Jewish! What else could it be? The big question back then was whether Yeshua had been sent for the Gentiles also. .
The Messianic age is interesting to study...Even the rabbi's say the Law of Moses won't be present in the Messianic Age.
"The Torah which a man learns in this world is but vanity compared to the Torah of Messiah." (Midrash Qohelet 11:8)
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