Messianic History

plum · Nov 16, 2006

antsinmypants said:
One of the things in History that I remember is something about the Conversos' jewelry - there was reported to be a "Secret star" necklace, a neat design that could be joined and make a Magen David, but I never saw one until about a year and a half ago.

I found online somewhere the pendant that is made similar to the one they wore and could change out to a Magen David... here is a link:
http://www.jewelrymaven.com/product_...e9d24e6fd5a771
I've wanted to get one.. but the price is so expensive everywhere that has it.
..

that's fantastic... i want to see it!

but the link isn't complete... the ellipsis is really in the link... could you try it again?

Hadassah · Nov 16, 2006

eirene said:
that's fantastic... i want to see it!

but the link isn't complete... the ellipsis is really in the link... could you try it again?

hope it works now http://www.jewelrymaven.com/product...=1401&osCsid=3c6f250d4831a53c9ff56ec2f09637d5

plum · Nov 16, 2006

ah it did!
here's another design like it:
http://www.thesecretstar.com/

Hadassah · Nov 16, 2006

Yes, that one is very similar

plum · Nov 16, 2006

they both use the same exact text describing the jewelry though... that annoys me

sorry, off track

visionary · Nov 18, 2006

Robert Eisenman has pointed out that the names of four of Jesus' disciples are also suggestive of the kingly messianic theme--Simon was called the Zealot, possibly referring to his membership in the anti-Herodian political movement, Judas Iscariot's name can be interpreted as Aramaic for "man of the sicarii", the sicarii being an terrorist cadre that carried short daggers for assassinating those they viewed as corruptors of the Law, and the title "Sons of Thunder" that Jesus gave to two of his disciples was certainly fitting for members of the anti-Herodian movement. Even Peter's reputation for rash action such as cutting the ear from one of Jesus' would-be abductors--fits well within this political context. It may then be relevant that the followers of Jesus who comprised the "Early Church" in Palestine were called "Zelotai of the Law".

visionary · Nov 18, 2006

Although his view remains a minority one, this and other similarities between the Qumran community and the followers of Jesus. J.L.Teicher (1951), who is the first and one of the few who argues that the Teacher of Righteousness is Jesus, identified the Qumran community as being one of the early branches of Judaism that accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

visionary · Nov 20, 2006

THE PASAGINI

During the twelfth century, the Latin records of the Inquisition often mention the name of the Pasaginians. The name is spelled several ways in Latin: Pasagii, Pasagini, Passagerii, Passagii, Passageres, Passagieri. They are first mentioned in the records of the council of Verona (A.D. 1184). In general, the church historians derive their name from the wandering, unsettled life of these people--from passage, or, in other words, they were passengers, travelers. Persecuted and hunted down like wild game by the Romish Church, their only half-way safe retreat was in the solitude of the majestic Alps. Jas, on the other hand, derives the word from the Greek Pas-agios, entirely holy; Some assert that this last-mentioned term led to another appellation, Circumcisis; while others try to explain this word to mean that they were circumcised. Dr. U. Hahn, who has written an extensive history of the so-called heretics of the eleventh to the thirteenth centuries, claims:--

The name of Pasagini was used in a twofold sense, viz., a definite Jewish-Christina sect was thus named; then it was also the general application for all the heretics, who all moved back and forth more or less, but chiefly the Cathari and Waldensians. This they did partly to spread their doctrines, and partly to escape the snares of their enemies. Geschichte der Ketzer, 3,5

Neander expresses himself as follows:

Among the sects of Oriental origin belongs, perhaps besides those already mentioned, the Pasagii or Pasagini. The name of this sect reminds one of the word passagium (passage), which signifies a tour, and was very commonly employed to denote pilgrimages to the East. To the holy sepulcher, --crusades. May not this word, then, be regarded as an index, pointing to the origin of the sect as one that came from the East, intimating that it grew out of the intercourse with Palestine? May we not suppose that from very ancient times a party of Judaizing Christians had survived, of which this sect must be regarded as an offshoot? The way in which they expressed themselves concerning Christ as being the first-born of creation, would point also, more directly, at the connection of their doctrine with some older Jewish theology, than at that later purely Western origin. Church History, fifth period, 8, pp. 403,404

What Neander supposes, we have demonstrated by a regular and connected chain of evidence. The mighty crusades brought the West into closer contact with the East there were Sabbath-keepers everywhere in the East; and it would be but natural that the crusaders would come in touch with the Sabbath-keepers of the East: in fact, we have presented definite evidence of that in the case of the Bulgarians. And these so-called Judaizing Christians; were none other than the Nazarenes mentioned by Cardinal Humbert during this very century-- the true Israel of God, who, amid all the persecutions through which they had passed, bore the reproach of Christ more than any other Christian party, wandering about everywhere as pilgrims and strangers, to preach the faith of Jesus and the commandments of God.

visionary · Nov 20, 2006

The papal bulss, especially those of Gregory I, and Gregory VII, and Nicolas I, are our chief source of information concerning the Pasagini. Aside from these, we have but two leading notices in Catholic histories of heretics. One is found in the writings of Bonacursus against the heretics, entitled “Against the Heretics, Who are Called Pasagii.” Its contents are as follows”--

“Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasagini, and how nefarious their belief and doctrine are. But because there are some who do not know them, it does not annoy me to write what I think of them, partly from precaution and for their salvation, and partly for their shame and confusion, in order that their foolishness might become more widely known, and that they might be the more condemned and despised of all. As we ought to know the good in order to do it, so likewise should we know the evil that we might shun it.

“Let those who are not yet acquainted with them, please note how perverse their belief and doctrine are. First, they teach that we should obey the law of Moses according to the letter-- the Sabbath, and circumcision, and the legal precepts still being in force. The also teach that Christ, the Son of god, is not equal with God, and that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-- these three persons are not one God and on being. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman church. But because they seek to base their errors upon the witness of the New Testament and the prophets, let us slay them with their own sword by the aid of the grace of Christ, as David once slew Goliath.” D’Achery, Spicilegium I, f. 211-214. Muratory, Antiq. Med. Aevi 5, f. 152. Hanh, 3, 209

The following report is found in a work written by Gregorius, of Bergamo, about A,.D. 1250, against the Cathari and Pasaginians:--

“After what has been said of the Cathari, there still remains the sect of the pasagini. They teach Christ to be the first and pure creature; that the Old Testament festivals are to be observed-- circumcision, distinction of foods, and in nearly all other matters, save the sacrifices, the Old Testament is to be observed as literally as the New-- circumcision is to be kept according to the letter. They say that no good person before the advent of Christ descended into the lower regions; and that there is no one in the lower regions and in paradise until now, nor will there be until sentence has been rendered on the day of Judgement.” Collectio Rev. Occitan in the Royal Library of Paris, doc. 35, quoted in Dollinger’s History of the Sects, vol. 2, p. 375

For more of the story check out the website I found this information on...

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/historyofsabbath/hos_twentyone_b.html#033

visionary · Nov 20, 2006

The patriarch Cerularius, in connection with the Bulgarian metropolis tan Leo of Achrida, in A.D. 1053 addressed a letter to John, bishop of Trani, in southern Italy (which was under Greek jurisdiction), and through him to the Pope, charging that the churches of the West followed the practise of the Jews, and went contrary to the usage of Christ, because in the eucharist they employed unleavened bread; they fasted on Saturday during Lent; that they ate blood, and things strangled, etc. The following year, Nicetas, a learned monk, attacked the Roman Church for fasting on the Sabbath, for celibacy, etc.’ this was refuted by the Pope and by the Cardinal Humbert. Pope Leo IX sent to Constantinople, under the imperious Humbert, three legates with counter-charges; that Cerularius arrogated to himself the title “ecumenical” patriarch; that, like the Nicolaitans, they permitted their priests to live in wedlock; and finally--

“Because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews and the Lord’s day with us, you seem to imitate in such observance the sect of the Nazarenes, who in this manner accept Christianity in order that they be not obliged to leave Judaism.” Migne, 145, 936; Photius, 3, 746

The end of this controversy was that the Roman legates excommunicated the patriarch and his adherents (July 16, 1054) and the patriarch answered by a synodical counter-anathema against the papal legates, accusing them of fraud. The patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem adhered tot the See of Constantinople, and thus the schism, between the East and the West was completed. The Sabbath observance played an important part indeed in this controversy, which ended in final division. And the words called forth by this controversy are a striking proof that as late as the eleventh century the true Israel was still existing under their old name, keeping the Sabbath of Jehovah; or the cardinal would not have mentioned them as a definite sect, differing from the Jews as well as from the Catholics.

visionary · Nov 20, 2006

I would like to thank Ivy for giving me the lead of THE PASAGINI or I would have never run into this website full of faith in the commandments of God and having the faith of Yeshua throught out the centuries

Eben Abram · Nov 20, 2006

Shalom Alecheim

Good post Visionary, the Seventh Day Adventist have a wealth of material on Sabbath Keeping and while not all Christian Scholars agreed with J.N. Edwards his work is thought provoking.

Another :18. PASAGINIANS http://www.all-of-grace.net/references/bucks_dictionary/bd_p.htm#A018

A denomination which arose in the twelfth century, known also by the name of the Circumcised. their distinguishing tenets were these, 1. That the observation of the law of Moses in every thing except the offering of sacrifices was obligatory upon Christians. In consequence of which, they circumcised their followers, abstained from those meats the use of which was prohibited under the Mosaic aeconomy, and celebrated the Jewish sabbath.--2. That Christ was no more than the first and purest creature of God. This denomination had the utmost aversion to the doctrine and discipline of the church of Rome.

All of us learn to "FILTER" with help of the Holy Spirit of G-d ruach ha kodesh and apply (hopefully) kavanaugh ha shem and grace with mercy those words and thoughts many scholars through the centuries both Jewish and Christian who have as we do, known in part and seek to know in fulness Messiah.

As a Choice I love Shabbes, as a theological discussion I see error in many writings equally when passion and zeal with advocacy of a posit overrule our relationship with G-d.

In other words, as Y'shua your master lead you, that is the WAY halacha you should go. If it be as one brother said to me once to leave his faith and join a yeshiva to learn, I said Go with G-d and if it be G-d led him to learn and later choose to follow Messiah in a more knowing way, then the lesson and learning was his to apply as G-d himself led him and taught Him.

Example: a person who is fully assimilated and knows nothing of thier heritage might choose Catholicism because of the ethnic and historical as well as persuassive (some) theological posit , I know the bother of the Cardinal of France who is a concentration camp survivor and He chose to remain a Catholic and movend up in that denomination and choosing to apply his Yiddishkite soul so to speak to Catholic expression.

His brother meanwhile found favor in Reform Judaism in Israel and at discussion with Him about the Messianic Jews who He met and enjoyed, He said He could understand them more than he could his brother.

Each were and are seeking to do the "Will of the L-rd as they understand and learn and so too many choose a very Observant lifestyle in comprehending Torah and Who He is.

As one who has and enjoys in season Shabbes Observance in a predominant Orthodox way and also applied and had applied to me a liberality of expression amoung other brethren I have found the L-rd of Shabbes is my L-rd and my G-d and as each of us determines the direction he is led, it is G-d who will lead our study at times to be fully persuaded in each situation the fact of our position.

This man: John Nevins Andrews (1829 - 1883), also known as Elder J. N. Andrews, was a Seventh-day Adventist scholar and missionary. Andrews made Adventist church history, when, in 1874 he became the first Adventist missionary overseas.

J. N. Andrews was born in Poland, Maine in 1829. His family accepted the teachings of preacher William Miller in the 1840s and later accepted the Sabbath message. Andrews became a minister in 1850 and was consequently ordained in 1853. Andrews helped the Adventist movement identify the two-horned beast of Revelation as the United States of America.[1] In 1856, Andrews married Angeline Stevens to whom he had four children. Angeline died in 1872. Andrews became the third president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in 1867 and held that post until becoming the editor of the Adventist Review in 1869.

In 1874 Andrews traveled to Switzerland to become the growing denomination's first overseas missionary.

Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan was named after him in 1960.

That man was fully persuaded and while I as a Older Beleiver do not agree with many of his conclusions, I repsect and honor is faithfulness to his position and fully expect to see Him in the Kingdom though I would debate and contra stand on Discussion of his advocacy.

For me and those who study as I do, we do not hold the necessity to agree on Theology of Religious Expression though we love to discuss debate and learn from many sources, we hold to Messiah who seems to indicate to us that if it lead the individual to Know Him then G-d was more than able to take what we may not comrehend and make it accpetable to another who may have needed that "dogma" to get to Knowing G-d.

Not Emergent, not unitarian and not inclusivity but acknowledging G-d is L-rd of all.

Alecheim Shalom

Good post Visionary.

visionary · Nov 20, 2006

Shalom Alecheim Eben Abram

Very interesting

G-d who will lead our study at times to be fully persuaded in each situation the fact of our position.

so true... that explains the many flavors .... but.... not the unchrist like spirit that has prevaded some religious endeavors throughout the centuries whose soul purpose was to destroy those who see differently. Each one must give an account for their faith. God will reckon each by their spirit.

stone · Nov 21, 2006

I googled PASAGINIANS

and i must of gotten a letter wrong-

I found something about an Italian violinist that supposedly sold his soul to the devil to become the worlds greatest. Says he was the 1st solo concertist person. I guess like the 1st Michael Jackson. Back in the Napoleon days.

lol, then i read the other post..

Eben Abram · Nov 21, 2006

Shalom Alecheim

Visionary

I agree.

There is a possibility of Un christ or anti-christ and even as more traditional Jews would say "an evil eye" and/or the evil one.

I sincerely beleive what most when they study Sages in Judaism and Saints in Christendom there is found the individual person may have been more in touch with G-d then we know, and much of what is later added to them, they themselves would not necessrily have agreed to.

I AM glad I do not have to ascribe as many of my brethren do a negative to church history, the negatives are obvious and people who need to polarize thier faith for affirmation or validity often cannot see the good or the "spirit" of G-d in man through the ages.

I Choose rather to study the Intent and Content of what G-d did and does inspite of man's error and ha Satan's affluences as well as failing of man to rule himself.

I haven't had a chamce to read all the posts about Messianic History here, but for the scholars who want to study, there is alot of bias and marranos aren't messianic Jews unless the movement has changed or here they are considered such. It seems the "new age" of messianic Jews and Christians are prone to what rabbi's used to say as hasty studies.

The Yavneh debates in Old Israel wold have been more to my style and I still love to research to the finite detail till I am irrevocably persuaded . When I am so convinced, and as Logical and Theoretical as I am....I take in my pride my postulate and talk to G-d about it wrestling till he give me an answer.....

(smile) His "answer" to me is always wise and extrmely humbling...,

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

I read you Bio Visionary and Since you are led and do study, don't be surprised if you go on tangents at times. There are many who do and learn alot from it.

Alecheim Shalom

A good source for alot of Messianic History

visionary · Nov 22, 2006

Since you are led and do study, don't be surprised if you go on tangents at times.

Many a tangent I have gone on, but have come out with the Lord's leading through it all, for the Lord said "Fear no evil, for I am with thee". And He has been and will continue til I ask no more.

Eben Abram · Nov 24, 2006

Shalom Alecheim

And they shall be taught by G-d.....

Amen Visionary So it is and so for you and may it be for all.

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

visionary · Nov 26, 2006

I haven't had a chamce to read all the posts about Messianic History here, but for the scholars who want to study, there is alot of bias and marranos aren't messianic Jews unless the movement has changed or here they are considered such. It seems the "new age" of messianic Jews and Christians are prone to what rabbi's used to say as hasty studies.

You are probably correct on this assessment.

visionary · Nov 26, 2006

Talmid HaYarok said:
In Israel and Lebanon there are very old Messianic congregations.

I saw this quote by Talmid HaYarok in a very old CF thread and wondered if anyone knows about the very old congregations in Israel and Lebanon that he is speaking of.

visionary · Nov 26, 2006

simchat_torah said:
The oldest messianic congregation that I'm aware of is in Russia, started in 1882 I believe.

Anyway, those old congregations are very very rare... you could probably count them on your fingers (globally).

I also ran into this statement and would like any information regarding these congregations that were mentioned in another porting on a old thread.

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