Mental Images in Prayer

[Wigglesworth]

When I was a pentecostal I used visual images a lot in prayer and worship. As a therapist I have taught relaxation exercises using visual images for years. So during my conversion process, it was hard to wrap my mind around why it would be "bad" to have visual or mental images.

From my limited understanding, the issue is that with visual images one leaves the door open to having our own mind make up things in the "vision" or "image" and than have that effect what we believe or have us think the "message" was from God when it was just our own imagination.

It was hard as I said for me to grab ahold of this idea at first. I had to make myself stop using visualization. I even had to stop closing my eyes when I prayed for the same reason. In church I make myself look at the iconstatis or the floor (or often the music sheet) to keep my mind from wandering into my own imagination at times.

I am intrigued by this issue. Anyone, please tell us more about why visualization is discouraged in Orthodoxy.

 

[eoe]

<warning - I know nothing>

Mental images in prayer are a flashing neon sign and red carpet to demons and a handwritten invitation for them to lead you to delusoin and prelest.
There have been countless stories of people being deceived by visions that later lead them to do something quite bad like throwing themselves into a well.

Let's try this. When we try to understand a Math problem we use our intellect right? If we try to solve some engineering problem we use mental images in our intellect to figure out what goes where.

God is not known in this way. He is not experienced by the intellect. He is expereienced in the n&#959;&#965;&#962; - the heart - thus looking in the intellect is futile and can only lead to delusion. You can not figure out a math problem by using your nous and you can not experience God in your head.

 

[Orthocat]

Here are some quotes from people who use visualization techniques:

Most magick we do involves powerful visualization techniques and if you have a decent imagination, you CAN use visualization...one of the biggest complaints I've had is "Hey, I don't 'see' pictures in my head when I visualize!" - Guess what...it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter - some of us are visual people, some of us are auditory people, some of us are verbal people...use what works for YOU. If you can't see it...try to imagine hearing the scene you've tried to visualize...if you can't hear it...try creating the scene through words in your head...it's all there...just give yourself time and practice.

Yes actually, that is exactly true..visualization is just the name - it is FAR more than just "visual". But that's kind of what I was trying to get across...and just open up the discussion for it...
I think the more senses and "elements" you can incorporate into a visualization, the more powerful it can become...

Visualization is most often used in occult practices. In mind/body separation and travel you would visualize where you want to go....or who's body you would want to possess.
Demonic influences are present in visualization. They can distort and lead you away from what it is you are doing, the prayer and the worship.

just my opinion...

 

[RoseofLima]

*This is totally not an Orthodox position, but my own experience as a Catholic*

To hold an image in my mind, causes me to focus attention and energy on maintaining that image. I think it is distracting and inhibits being able to empty oneself to be filled with Christ....those images are just another form of distraction.

In the other thread, I likened it, for me, to physical union with my husband. If I am thinking about the fun we had at dinner a few hours ago, it is keeping me from fully entering into the most intimate union with my spouse in the present moment. Rather than aiding or union, that image is keeping total intimacy at bay.

Also for many those sensual experiences become pivotal in their faith and practice of devotion...they feel as though they are getting 'nothing' if the cannot conjure images in prayer.

In Western spirituality (I'm thinking specifically of St. Francis de Sales)...meditating about something (a verse of Scripture, an aspect of Jesus' life, a tenant of the Faith) is taught as training to be able to enter, eventually into deeper prayer. It never specifically points to visually led meditations, but again never mentions to be on guard.

St. Teresa of Avila- warns against deceptive images, but then recommends all her sister have images of JEsus to aid them in prayer....so I don't know exactly where that leaves things

In the other thread I asked this , but I'll ask here too... How does the use of icons fit in here? When one is venerting an icon, is it a prayer? Are they written for contemplating ( I mean some are so complex and full of so much symbolism!)? Or what is that relationship? How does that iconostasis (so don't know if that is the right word or if it ought to be capitalised) aid one's worship at Divine Liturgy?

 

[eoe]

You can not have "intimate contact" with your spleen and you can not pray with your mind. They are used for different things. Your Eyes do not smell and your intellect can not experience God. Trying to search for God with mental images is like trying to taste honey with your eyelid.

I am not belittling your position - in the RC tradition you are doing it properly.

When one is venerting an icon, is it a prayer?

No - seperate action. You venerate an Icon but you do not pray to them. You can pray to a Saint at the same time you venerate an icon but the two are like chewing gum and walking in a circle - different actions.

How does that iconostasis (so don't know if that is the right word or if it ought to be capitalised) aid one's worship at Divine Liturgy?

By preventing mental images. Seems odd but it works in some cases. It serves as a focal point that you can then ignore. Much like a point on the floor. You focus on it and then you ignore it.

St. Teresa of Avila- warns against deceptive images, but then recommends all her sister have images of JEsus to aid them in prayer....so I don't know exactly where that leaves things

I am a terrible sinner and I have no strength or wisdom at all. I can not tell the difference so I ignore them all.

That is the difference. This topic is also closely tied to the logismoi - the rogue thoughts. Some are good, some are bad. We can not always tell the difference so we just ignore them all.

 

[RoseofLima]

I actually think I tend more towards the Orthodox viewpoint on prayer...though with out having the vocabulary. I find mental images to be a distraction.

I think another problem I have in understanding- is that God became man...the intangible became tangible...knowing we are body and soul, spirit and flesh....that we needed to have a tangible perception of Him to more fully love. How does that all fit together?

(There is also that struggle I think with a difference in view of the intellect in Western spirituality...should I just post it in this thread and abandon the other one?)

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me about this--it really helps me a lot!

 

[choirfiend]

That is the reason we have iconography! God became Man, and is depictable as much as people could see Him and not be struck dead, though that would happen if they cast eyes upon God the Father (see Moses).

The physical aspect of Christ is, of course, what we receive in the Eucharist. We are whole beings, body and spirit, mind and nous, and all of these parts of our cohesive whole are nourished by the Eucharist as Christ abides in us and we in Him. The aspect of images 'centering' prayer, especially when we're distracted, is the method of bringing our attention back to the Kingdom of God, while preventing our imagination and worldly thoughts from helping our mind drift farther from what may be the truth. We CAN use our intellect to draw closer to God through coming to understand rationally that God exists, but we need the nous (mind of the heart) to sustain that faith and experience God on a level other than intellectually. Similarly, we CAN have an image coming into our eyes, but we discourage coming up with imagery on our own, because that makes the focus our OWN imagination, as creative as we can get, and sometimes the emotions that inspires, instead of the focus remaining on God, on something outside of ourselves.

 

[eoe]

LOL! I know- I posted there, too...

While this makes sense to me (feeling about Math the way I do *swoon*)...I have difficulty, becuase of my Western upbringing seeing the gift of intellect as a negative and something to lead away from God. Senses (including the imagination), yes, I can understand that...but intellect I think I don't understand (blame Aquinas ). Could you tell me more??

<please remember that I am a terrible sinner and know nothing. The only advice I give is to talk to your priest about this>
Sure thing - just over here

should I just post it in this thread and abandon the other one?

Yeah, let's talk here.

The intellect is not an evil or bad thing. it is simply for a different purpose. Since we have cultivated the intellect and in our society we hold it in high regard it is far easier for us to use it. We are heavily tied to the intellect and it is VERY easy for us to be derailed visual images or concepts.

This topic for me is so closely tied to the logismoi that I think it would be good to talk about them as well as the nature and development of a sin as well.

Sin starts as a movement. A stirring up of the passions. A demon for example will stir up the passions inside you and will use them to create an image. Let's say this image is a you shoplifting a prada purse. Normally this is not something that you would think of or even consider right? (RIGHT?>!>!> just kidding...) so... there you are and you have this nasty image in your head and for some reason it is just there.

So you are at this point being presented with an idea - an image. You have not committed a sin as of yet you are simply being tempted. This is phase zero.

Now comes the choice - you can either ignore the image, fight against it or you can entertain it.
If you decide to entertain this image then it will start to try to bring your will into allignment with it. You still have not sinned but this is really your last chance to escape without sinning. You again have choices - you can choose to ignore the idea, you can fight against it actively or you can go with it.
Here is phase one.
So. Your will has now come in line with this image. You have now sinned. You have aligned yourself with evil. Now you again are presented with options. You can repent - that is you can change your mind about this, you can forget about it or you can proceed to...
Phase two.
Planning. You are now acively sinning. You now have made the image your own and brought your will into alignment with it. You now go into planning to actually commit the physical action. Again - you can choose to repent or you can then go on to execution.
At this point you are already in deep yogurt. You have sinned and you are actively being damaged. It does not matter if somethijng prevents you from stealing the bag - you have sinned and you have damaged yourself for the future. Again the decision comes - Stop now or go on to...
Phase three - execution.
You steal the bag and run out of the store and now you have this bag.
This is it - you have gone through with the full execution of the sin.
At this point you have been damaged and you are in deep yogurt and you ahve been in a cycle of ever growing sin since moving to phase 1.

We can see that all of this started with a passion. The demon used this passion inside you to bring forth this image - this logismoi. This was the point where the intellect got dragged off and hogtied because we are focused on what is happening in our head.

It s interesting to note that you can go from phase 0 to phase 3 in about as much time as it takes for light to travel 1cm. Still the phases happen in sequence. Passion stirred, image/thought/logismoi presented - our will comes into alignment, planning and then execution.
So.... how is it that we can stop this? The best thing is to become totally and completely dead to the world - the passions. That unfortunately is a gift that can take lifetimes to aquire and I certainly do not have it. So... what should some passionate soul like me do?

You go to the source. You watch the heart and you observe any movements. When you fail to watch the heart you get presented with images. BAH!
So.. now you have this iamge. What do you do? There are only so many options and if the thing turns out to be bad then we are in for a bad ride! We can fight against them but we have no strength of our own and a demon will simlly use our anger at the original image to lead us into some other sin. The best thing to do in the majority of cases is to ignore all images that come into your head. If we fail to catch them at the heart before they can be stirred up then we have to ignore them.

This is why we strive to ignore ALL mental images all the time - not only in prayer but also in daily life.

 

[eoe]

I think another problem I have in understanding- is that God became man...the intangible became tangible...knowing we are body and soul, spirit and flesh....that we needed to have a tangible perception of Him to more fully love. How does that all fit together?

Have you read On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius yet? IF not I highly recommend it.

 

[DonVA]

Sigh.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eoe again.

 

[RoseofLima]

I need to go nap and gestate while my youngest are all napping, but will post (hopefully) later today.

Thanks so much y'all!

 

[RoseofLima]

<please remember that I am a terrible sinner and know nothing. The only advice I give is to talk to your priest about this>
Sure thing - just over here

Yeah, let's talk here.

The intellect is not an evil or bad thing. it is simply for a different purpose. Since we have cultivated the intellect and in our society we hold it in high regard it is far easier for us to use it. We are heavily tied to the intellect and it is VERY easy for us to be derailed visual images or concepts.

This topic for me is so closely tied to the logismoi that I think it would be good to talk about them as well as the nature and development of a sin as well.

Sin starts as a movement. A stirring up of the passions. A demon for example will stir up the passions inside you and will use them to create an image. Let's say this image is a you shoplifting a prada purse. Normally this is not something that you would think of or even consider right? (RIGHT?>!>!> just kidding...) so... there you are and you have this nasty image in your head and for some reason it is just there.

So you are at this point being presented with an idea - an image. You have not committed a sin as of yet you are simply being tempted. This is phase zero.

Now comes the choice - you can either ignore the image, fight against it or you can entertain it.
If you decide to entertain this image then it will start to try to bring your will into allignment with it. You still have not sinned but this is really your last chance to escape without sinning. You again have choices - you can choose to ignore the idea, you can fight against it actively or you can go with it.
Here is phase one.
So. Your will has now come in line with this image. You have now sinned. You have aligned yourself with evil. Now you again are presented with options. You can repent - that is you can change your mind about this, you can forget about it or you can proceed to...
Phase two.
Planning. You are now acively sinning. You now have made the image your own and brought your will into alignment with it. You now go into planning to actually commit the physical action. Again - you can choose to repent or you can then go on to execution.
At this point you are already in deep yogurt. You have sinned and you are actively being damaged. It does not matter if somethijng prevents you from stealing the bag - you have sinned and you have damaged yourself for the future. Again the decision comes - Stop now or go on to...
Phase three - execution.
You steal the bag and run out of the store and now you have this bag.
This is it - you have gone through with the full execution of the sin.
At this point you have been damaged and you are in deep yogurt and you ahve been in a cycle of ever growing sin since moving to phase 1.

We can see that all of this started with a passion. The demon used this passion inside you to bring forth this image - this logismoi. This was the point where the intellect got dragged off and hogtied because we are focused on what is happening in our head.

It s interesting to note that you can go from phase 0 to phase 3 in about as much time as it takes for light to travel 1cm. Still the phases happen in sequence. Passion stirred, image/thought/logismoi presented - our will comes into alignment, planning and then execution.
So.... how is it that we can stop this? The best thing is to become totally and completely dead to the world - the passions. That unfortunately is a gift that can take lifetimes to aquire and I certainly do not have it. So... what should some passionate soul like me do?

You go to the source. You watch the heart and you observe any movements. When you fail to watch the heart you get presented with images. BAH!
So.. now you have this iamge. What do you do? There are only so many options and if the thing turns out to be bad then we are in for a bad ride! We can fight against them but we have no strength of our own and a demon will simlly use our anger at the original image to lead us into some other sin. The best thing to do in the majority of cases is to ignore all images that come into your head. If we fail to catch them at the heart before they can be stirred up then we have to ignore them.

This is why we strive to ignore ALL mental images all the time - not only in prayer but also in daily life.

So passions are considered images? Are all feelings images? And is that because the are of the intellect?

ANother thing I was thinking about yesterday- but perhaps the question about passions will answer it...was about how one is moved looking, for example, at magnificent artwork (or even listening to beautiful music)....what part of being is responding? It seems on the surface, to not be the intellect...but perhaps I have that wrong...

There is the physical beauty, the sensual experiences( smells, sounds, etc.) at Divine Liturgy...how does that fit in with all of this?

 

[eoe]

So passions are considered images?

Passions are the source for the logismoi - the rogue thoughts. Many of the rogue thoughts are expressed as images. I hesitate to call the passions weaknesses because they are more than that - they are active within us - imagine an active weakness maybe?

Are all feelings images?

No - feelings are feelings - images are images. When you see some picture in your head - like a video of something going on - let's say some one cuts you off in traffic and you get an picture of giving the guy a one finger salute. That is an image. You picture some attractive person that you saw earlier in the day - that is an image. You picture your mother baking a pie - that is an image - this one seems innocent until you chase after the image and end up in an imaginary fight with your mother...
I think you can have logismoi that are not presented as images but that is a popular way for them to present themselves. You lie in bed and a movie plays in your head about some event that happened that day.... that kind of thing. Often we find that if we chase after these images they take us places we should not go but when we get there it is too late becase we are too weak to fight at that point - our will has already come into alignment with the logismoi and we are in sin. we have not even moved from out bed after waking up and WHAM passion, logismoi, will comes into alignment - sin.

And is that because the are of the intellect?

We are very heavily tied up in the intellect. We spend all of our time there. When we try to get outside of the intellect we become bored. When we are intellectually bored it is easy for us to chase after images, after logismoi.

In The Mountain of Silence (highly recommended)
Kyriacos gives the example of having three "eyes". There is the eye of the senses (empirical science), the eye of reason (mathematics, logic, philosophy) and the eye of contemplation. The eye of contemplation represents the "systematic and disciplined spiritual practice to open up the intuitive and spiritual faculties of the self". His position was that these three "eyes" are out of balance. He says that - especially in the western world the eye of contemplation had been driven out as as viable means for aquiring knowledge. Those that were given to contemplation were marginalized or villified.

So - in this way we have made ourselves predisposed to chase after rational thoughts and images. They are our strong point if you will but they create or expose our spiritual weakness in that like a man with crutches we favor the one leg(eye of reason) and neglect the other(eye of contemplation). A thought comes along and we are used to grabbing on to them we chase after them and if they are demonic then we get hammered before we even know what is going on. This is why it is so hard to actually pray. It is like a tiny boat in a lake. The demons throw rocks into the lake and it causes ripples in our mind. Those ripples toss the tiny boat this way and that. When when learn to ignore the logismoi it is as if the demons throw rocks into the lake but they slip in smoothly and do not disturb the surface of the water. The boat is no longer tossed and the heart can open up and pray.

ANother thing I was thinking about yesterday- but perhaps the question about passions will answer it...was about how one is moved looking, for example, at magnificent artwork (or even listening to beautiful music)....what part of being is responding?

You will have to watch and see. When you look at the art and you get a feeling - are you thinking? Are there thoguhts going on about "Oh the artist used this kind of paint" or are you simply experiencing the painting?

It seems on the surface, to not be the intellect...but perhaps I have that wrong...

Ah.. there you go then. We can be moved by all sorts of things. A work of art, a flower, a child crying. It all depends on which eye we see this with. The intellect might see the child crying and get angry at its mother. The philosopher might see it and lament the world condition or come to the conclusion that suffereing is a normal thing. The nous on the other hand would see this child and be moved to love it and comfort it and help it. You would not think "This child's mother is terrible" you would simply love the child and be moved to help - no thoughts at all about "I am late" or "I am too busy" - just love and a desire to help.
It is the same with everything. When we are cut off in traffic and we see with the eye of the intellect - we are dealing with the faculty of reason - we get offended and we strike out. If we see with the nous we are moved to love the person and pray that they make it to their destination safely.

There is the physical beauty, the sensual experiences( smells, sounds, etc.) at Divine Liturgy...how does that fit in with all of this?

These things all move us towards the point where we can use the nous - the heart. It creates an atmosphere that is pleasant and conducive to moving into the heart.

I suppose it makes sense to clarify that you are not going to completely eliminate the others. They will exist. You are no going to suddenly go blind and deaf. Your senses will still be active but the nous will also be active onstead of dormant. IT will become the primary focus and the others will not disturb you.

(caveat - please do not think that I am in any way spiritually advanced. I am simply giving the position of the fathers as I understand it. It is altogether possible that I am leaving out important parts or am simply confused.)


Let me give you another example. A monk is in the desert living a very ascetic life. He is praying and the mental images come upon him. He sees a light and then an angel coming down from heaven. The angel tells him that because of his extreme labor and pure prayer he has been given favor from God. In order to prove this to the monk he instructs the monk to dive headlong into a nearby well and God will save him from ay harm.

The monk is later found badly injured in the bottom of the well.

It can even be less dramatic. You are praying and you sense that you are doing well. You imagine yourself giving a lecture on prayer and people giving you a standing ovation. Guess what? You have just been derailed from prayer and put square into the middle of a prideful delusion.

You pray and an image comes to you about your mother. You see in this image that she is hurt. You rush to the phone and end up in an argument with her about your boyfriend. Prayer is replaced with dishonoring your parents and anger.
There are many ways for the demons to derail us the use of mental images is only one of them. This is why we ignore them entirely. We ignore the imges - the thoughts - we even go so far as to ignore things that appear to be great rewards from God. Ignore everything and just pray "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy upon me, the sinner".
Elder Porphyrios once was presented with a great light and a voice. He responded "Who am I to receive such a blessing" and immediately the light went away. He simply returned to the prayer.

It goes beyond images - it goes on to feelings, thoughts, apparitions -even demons physically throwing you around! - everything must be ignored.



(edit: It seems that I have dominated this thread which I do not want to do..... It would be really cool if someone could jump in and add something or correct me...)

 

[RoseofLima]

Thank you so much for taking so much time to talk with me about this...it really helps to have the words, the vocabulary. It is an area where I feel Western SPirituality is deficient (NOT in the vocaubulary- we've bot plenty of definitions )..in the firm understanding of the point of the life of faith.... We can tell you that the point of this life is know God, serve Him and love Him here and be eternally happy with Him in heaven. But then there seems to be a breakdown in #1- belief that it is actually possible for most people, and #2 concrete instruction on how to grow towards that union.

To me the whole point of Christian living is total union with Christ. I feel it is what I was created for-that we are all created for--not just a select few who are 'lucky'....

I understand about the images playing themselves out in one's mind- it is an area where God has granted me enormous grace to have been made aware of those 'daydream' scenarios which lead to imagined discussion, actions, etc. -and to understand that what is called for is prayer. I am not always successful- being the weakling that I am--but He has blessed with that awareness...so I think I do understand what you are talking about.

I went on retreat to this monastery earlier in the summer- and on SUnday the priest gave a homily in which he talked about the use of incense--- and that one of its purposes is to obscure the senses, to have to rely more on the eye of contemplation....

My dad and I have often had this discussion--about how to 'know' God's will in our lives. He is an engineer, and just doesn't understand when I say just to listen- that God will tell him....

 

[Paisie]

If you have mental images while you are praying, this is considered idolatry. Because God in is whole cannot be locked in a concept &#8211; such as an image. If you do so, you are not praying to God, but to a concept that you have about God. Why can&#8217;t you design a concept of God? The answer is as simple as it could get. God is infinite and He is above our being. By nature, you cannot place something that&#8217;s infinite into something that&#8217;s finite. Our human and limited logic cannot embosom God &#8211; the One that is above our being.

 

[Orthocat]

a big "right on!" to eoe and Paisie!!

 

[Adammi]

This is very interesting to me.
Coming from a Pentecostal background, like Xenia, then coming close to converting to Catholicism I use my mind to imagine things a lot. The Rosary is really the highlight of my prayerlife and it is completely imagry. Now, with this Orthodox view, I'm looking at things very differently.
Interesting.

 

[The Virginian]

I am intrigued by this issue. Anyone, please tell us more about why visualization is discouraged in Orthodoxy.

Mental images are disouraged in prayer, because as smart as we may be, we're still not "up 100%" on the cunning ways of Lucifer. It is a dangerous, dangerous thing!

I use to pray that God would give me spiritual dreams, but no more. It is just soooo easy, to be carried away by our own pride!

Ask yourself; How am I to know what is a truthful image, to imagine in my mind as I pray? And again, will my "feelings be hurt" if the person I relay my images to be comdemning, which gives room to pride and condemnation!

There is usually so much in our lives that doesn't ev en come close to being in full compliance to the commmands of God for us, that to entangle ourselves with another hinderance, is irrational.


a bondservant of The Lord!

 

[Akathist]

It is so important not to rely on our "feelings" to know if our prayers are being heard, or to try to imagine things about God.

Feelings are fickle and if you rely on them then sure enough you will have a "dry spell" where you "feel nothing" as a temptation to give up the quest of the narrow path! It is better to not try to intuit things about God but to focus instead on opening your heart by setting your self aside.

I remember once as a Pentecostal I was "slain in the spirit" and had a wonderful vision. I can still recall it clearly but will not ever ever speak of it again. Why? Because I used to think this vision was important. I used to think that having this kind of an experience meant I was a strong Christian. But for me at least, it just fed into my own pride and need to feel "special". It had nothing to do with my setting myself aside, picking up my cross and following Christ.

And for the latter, about trying to understand things about God... well.. any god I can understand is not my God! His ways are not our ways!

However, in the process of doing this we must not ever think that our physical bodies or "nature" itself is evil. Christ redeemed the natural by His incarnation and his life on earth. Therefore, to use our bodies to pray, crossing ourselves, bowing, our scent to smell insense, the mirror to heaven (icons) and singing (chanting) our prayers we also honor Christ.

And I also want to note that we are not against an intellectual aspect of learning about the faith, reading and listening to teachings are important. But not more important than prayer. Keep in mind that for us Prayer and communion with God through the Eucharist are far more important than intellectual understanding.

 

[eoe]

Ask yourself; How am I to know what is a truthful image, to imagine in my mind as I pray?

And if the answer to your question sounds anything like "I have the ability to tell what is true and what is false" or "I have the gift of discernment" then it is quite likely that you are no longer simply in danger of delusion - you are aleady in delusion and quite tied up at that.

Here are two things that are incompatible and can not coexist:

Spiritual gifts and pride.

Where there is a lack of humility there is no discernment. Where there is a thought that you have attained discernment there is no humility.