Men's Rights

[Risen Tree]

We have had a few discussions around CF pertaining to women's rights...the issues, the types, the implications, and where we as people should stand.

Women's rights have made great strides in our society. We are seeing them break barriers in education, the work force, the home, and in society in general. Some additional progress is to be longed for, of course, and we cannot neglect or ignore this.

However, in recent times, some versions of feminism have crossed the line and declared an all-out war on men. Want proof? Just turn on the TV and wait for a verbal or physical battle to ensue between a man and a woman. I can guarantee you with 99% accuracy who will come out on top. Also, take a look at the classrooms. While women are setting records in terms of attendance in higher education, men are starting to fall back. On top of that, consider a statistic I heard from Reader's Digest: About 23% of all girls in public schools have a learning disability, IIRC. That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it, a one-in-four rate? However, guess what the percentage is for boys: About 77%. Folks that's not right. That's a sign of all-out oppression.

One last note before we get started: Please do not use this thread as an excuse to "put women in their place." Just because we need to raise up one sex does not mean we have to put the other one down. And that works both ways.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

Interesting thread...

I do believe that men do need more rights. There are some sexists out there who believe that women are superior to men and that we don't need men, which is totally untrue. I refuse to call those women 'feminists' because they do not represent any feminist value and giving true feminists a bad rep. I think we need to reverse stereotypes of men. Ex: men can't cry, they can't be emotional or sensitive ect. But just like feminism, there are going to be some radical men that believe that men are superior and that women have to be slaves. The whole education thing is terrible. Even though it's good that women are getting higher grades and such, it's horrible that it's now the men that are failing and getting low grades.

 

[merryheart]

I believe that what will happen as women gain an edge on men in education is that the decision makers (predominately men...) will decide that education is no longer an important criteria. In order for women to truly gain the power men have in todays society, more of them must be in on shaping social constructs. While it is true that men are sometimes discriminated against for their gender - and when I see it I think it is deplorable - overall, men (especially white men) *are* the ones who still hold the keys to all the power in business and society. We are far far away from any kind of parity. This does not mean however, that any particular individual man is to blame, or should pay, but it does mean that opportunity should exist to pave the way for other deserving individuals. We need to replace the current networking style of old boys clubs (elks, boyscouts et-al) with a networking style that allows more diversity of individuals to hold positions of power. I think that this situation warrants much more attention than the need for rights just for men. really, I want to see rights for all, and not for particular subsets of people.

 

[Risen Tree]

Interesting thread...

I do believe that men do need more rights. There are some sexists out there who believe that women are superior to men and that we don't need men, which is totally untrue. I refuse to call those women 'feminists' because they do not represent any feminist value and giving true feminists a bad rep. I think we need to reverse stereotypes of men. Ex: men can't cry, they can't be emotional or sensitive ect. But just like feminism, there are going to be some radical men that believe that men are superior and that women have to be slaves. The whole education thing is terrible. Even though it's good that women are getting higher grades and such, it's horrible that it's now the men that are failing and getting low grades.

Yep. We have the superiorists on both sides of the coin, and it needs to stop from both sides. Interesting point about not calling them feminists; it is true, they do tear down women's rights. Ah, don't remind me about that stupid men-don't-cry stereotype. Now I wonder about the education disparity...is it because the system is so overfocusing on girls and underfocusing on boys, or is it because some egos are rattled that they're "getting beat by a girl," or a combination of the two?

 

[msjones21]

Men have held the monopoly on better opportunities for centuries. It's about time women came out on top in some areas. It saddens me that many conservative Christian males still believe that women should remain at home and submit to them. Submission is such a loaded term anyway. It is still proven that women typically make less than men. They are also more likely to be given specific job opportunities over women which is odd since it is true women are more intelligent than men (typically). Now women are better at English related studies whereas men are better at math so there is a fair balance from an educational standpoint. You say that it's not right that boys are worse off academically than girls. It's about time, I say! Two hundred years ago men didn't even want to marry a woman who could read. We couldn't vote, we couldn't even speak about birth control let alone have any choice but to wed at an early age with hardly any education. We were expected to stay at home, be uneducated, and pop out babies left and right. We have so many more options now and I think it's a darn good time to be a woman, so why take two steps backwards just to pile on more rights for men than they already have, and have had since the beginning of time?
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not some raging femi-nazi who thinks all men should be doused in gasoline and set on fire, but I do believe the time for women to shine is long overdue.

 

[Risen Tree]

I believe that what will happen as women gain an edge on men in education is that the decision makers (predominately men...) will decide that education is no longer an important criteria. In order for women to truly gain the power men have in todays society, more of them must be in on shaping social constructs. While it is true that men are sometimes discriminated against for their gender - and when I see it I think it is deplorable - overall, men (especially white men) *are* the ones who still hold the keys to all the power in business and society. We are far far away from any kind of parity. This does not mean however, that any particular individual man is to blame, or should pay, but it does mean that opportunity should exist to pave the way for other deserving individuals. We need to replace the current networking style of old boys clubs (elks, boyscouts et-al) with a networking style that allows more diversity of individuals to hold positions of power. I think that this situation warrants much more attention than the need for rights just for men. really, I want to see rights for all, and not for particular subsets of people.

That makes sense. What's odd is, discounting the recent advantage women have over men in the education field, the rights of women still lag behind in society as a whole. We can't use the anti-male sexism in the classroom to justify the anti-female sexism in society.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

Yep. We have the superiorists on both sides of the coin, and it needs to stop from both sides. Interesting point about not calling them feminists; it is true, they do tear down women's rights. Ah, don't remind me about that stupid men-don't-cry stereotype. Now I wonder about the education disparity...is it because the system is so overfocusing on girls and underfocusing on boys, or is it because some egos are rattled that they're "getting beat by a girl," or a combination of the two?

I have no idea. When I was in secondary school, I didn't feel that the teachers were overfocusing on girls while the opposite for the boys but I think that varies from school to school. Or maybe is it because some boys aren't caring enough about school? I have a brother and he would never do his homework unless my mother made him to, never study, and get bad grades. He was very much into video games and sports. Is it perhaps that boys aren't getting challenged enough in school and encouraged enough that they just don't care about their grades anymore?

I remember reading an article where a school wanted to do an experiment and made all girl classes and all boy classes. The results was that both genders improved greated on their tests and grades. Some people explained these results because of the differences between the two genders' brains and that the teachers were able to provide for each of the genders' needs. Interesting, no?

 

[jhollas]

In Britain, there is only one group of people that have no pressue group acting for them:
Single, white, middle-class, straight, earning fathers.
That's why "Father For Justice" threw the purple flour at our Beloved Leader (note the reference! ), and it's also why the BNP (British National Party - extreme right wing, verging on Nazism) are starting to attract more voters from this particular group.

 

[feral]

In my opinion, the issue is not about men's rights versus women's rights, but rights for all people. I think it's a good idea to break down cultural barriers which insist on specific gender roles for individuals (men at work, women in house). If a woman chooses to be an at home mother, bravo! - but if she chooses to work, or not to have children at all that choice should be respected. Same with men. Many fathers put in 50-70 hours of work a week but see their children for less then 15 minutes a week. If men want to be stay home fathers, or work part time, or be responsible for their house, let them. I do think there is much more of a stigma on men who challenge gender roles then women. We as a society are getting used to women bosses, women in the military and women in political positions of power, but we still don't accept stay at home dads, men in childcare positions, male nurses or secretaries or really single fathers. Being done with these standards would be an improvement for all people, not just females.

I do think a patriarchy still exists. It's okay for a women to wear pants but not men to wear skirts, or for women to join the army but not for men to be babysitters - and I think that's due to the fact that men are percieved as lowering themselves when in these positions. We are just starting to accept women in positions of power, although there are still a lot of nasty names reserved for the assertive female. We are not, however, accepting men as "lesser" - as parents, as subordinates, as taking orders from women. We've got a lot of nasty names for the submissive male...whipped, for instance. A man can be a brute, a toughguy or a tyrant but not a sweetheart, sensitive or compassionate. He can yell and boss but not cry. He can be a executive or c.e.o. but not a day care teacher, a nurse, a receptionist. Unfortunately, that means men are restricted a lot, prohibited from being themselves or expressing themselves. If a man chooses to be a ceo, if he chooses not to express his feelings then okay, but when a man is told he can't, that's a problem.

So yes, I do think that male rights are needed. However, I am disappointed when I hear men resorting to anti-feminism. Keeping women in boxes, labeling them, is not going to improve freedoms for men. I think this is a reactionary tactic from men scared to lose their position and status, not from individuals truly seeking freedom and rights.

 

[MATRILEB]

Men have held the monopoly on better opportunities for centuries. It's about time women came out on top in some areas. It saddens me that many conservative Christian males still believe that women should remain at home and submit to them. Submission is such a loaded term anyway. It is still proven that women typically make less than men. They are also more likely to be given specific job opportunities over women which is odd since it is true women are more intelligent than men (typically). Now women are better at English related studies whereas men are better at math so there is a fair balance from an educational standpoint. You say that it's not right that boys are worse off academically than girls. It's about time, I say! Two hundred years ago men didn't even want to marry a woman who could read. We couldn't vote, we couldn't even speak about birth control let alone have any choice but to wed at an early age with hardly any education. We were expected to stay at home, be uneducated, and pop out babies left and right. We have so many more options now and I think it's a darn good time to be a woman, so why take two steps backwards just to pile on more rights for men than they already have, and have had since the beginning of time?
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not some raging femi-nazi who thinks all men should be doused in gasoline and set on fire, but I do believe the time for women to shine is long overdue.

Are you familiar with logical fallacies? Your argument is predicated on one, specifically, this one: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

 

[mpshiel]

Are men getting less of the pie now that women are playing a greater role in the workplace - certainly, probably only about 60%. I don't think Msjones is making a two wrong make a right fallacy but more like, should I reward you for beating me less?

I think the male box needs to be exploded, I just don't see a lot of men doing it. When culture tells a man that pride is more important than understanding or leadership is more important than compassion then men are just as likely to turn on those other men who want to change the masculine image. I think a man should be able to take on any job with the respect of other men - but we are still a long way from that.

 

[MATRILEB]

It is wrong to punish the innocent for crimes of their forebears, and wrong for the descendants of the oppressed to reap rewards for crimes they never suffered. Giving one class of people rights at the expense of another class's rights is hardly a respectable way to achieve equality.

 

[Sopharos]

However, in recent times, some versions of feminism have crossed the line and declared an all-out war on men. Want proof? Just turn on the TV and wait for a verbal or physical battle to ensue between a man and a woman. I can guarantee you with 99% accuracy who will come out on top.

Argument from television. Damned, never thought of that before. I should've argued with those who said travelling faster than the speed of light is impossible with "well, it was possible in Star Trek, so why not here?"

Also, take a look at the classrooms. While women are setting records in terms of attendance in higher education, men are starting to fall back. On top of that, consider a statistic I heard from Reader's Digest: About 23% of all girls in public schools have a learning disability, IIRC. That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it, a one-in-four rate? However, guess what the percentage is for boys: About 77%. Folks that's not right. That's a sign of all-out oppression.

Old news. Here in New Zealand, statistics show girls outperform boys hands down at school, and come out better-qualified. The injustice here, however, is that they generally get paid less than their male counterparts when they enter jobs and stuff.

Why do girls do better at school? That's because girls are more motivated and more mature when it come to setting career goals and planning their future. Why? I don't know.

But one thing for sure, it has nothing to do with any law's, organization's or movement's sexist injustice. If you think this is unfair, well I suggest you get your lazy a--es off the TV and do your Chemistry assignments for a change.

One last note before we get started: Please do not use this thread as an excuse to "put women in their place." Just because we need to raise up one sex does not mean we have to put the other one down. And that works both ways.

Lol. Men have completely dominated politics, businesses and societies for at least 4,000 years, so I think it's time for a change of fortunes and for us to take our turns. So, how about we dominate the next 4,000 years and you can be second-class citizen til then? j/k

 

[katherinethegreat]

we don't need men let's get rid of them all...screw equal rights

 

[MQTA]

Women complain about men, but then they complain about gays. Can't have it both ways. What do you want?

 

[megan76291]

Also, take a look at the classrooms. While women are setting records in terms of attendance in higher education, men are starting to fall back. On top of that, consider a statistic I heard from Reader's Digest: About 23% of all girls in public schools have a learning disability, IIRC. That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it, a one-in-four rate

So...how is it female's fault that men have declined in the educational world? that doesn't mean that there is female oppression, it just means that times have changed. also, learning disabilities are something that is inherited, and it just so happens that men are more likely to inherit them. as for tv, a lot of the stuff i see still opresses women-beating, rape,derogatory comments, etc, etc., etc. There are many instances where the arguement ends in compromise not the female being dominating. the society of today still veiws the male as the dominant figure, however, women have been rising. this thread suggests that the subject of women possibly becoming equal and finally getting the respect they deserve, obviously scares some people. women have been discriminated against since the beginning of time, i think its abouttime they make their move and have a place in the world.

 

[jhollas]

we don't need men let's get rid of them all...screw equal rights

Marvellous contribution there!

I think a lot of the problem comes down to this:
Increasingly, young women are being told that it's no longer alright for them to sit at home, and be a wife, and take care of their kids. No, they now have to go out and get careers. The problem is that while women are being encouraged to take a greater part in what has been traditionally male roles, (i.e. military, doctors, lawyers, etc.) men have not been encouraged to do the same in traditionally female roles.
The result of this is that young men are feeling more and more like there are no longer any options for them, as women are taking their roles in society. Which, by the way, is now the major cause of suicide in young males aged 18-25.

 

[mpshiel]

The result of this is that young men are feeling more and more like there are no longer any options for them, as women are taking their roles in society. Which, by the way, is now the major cause of suicide in young males aged 18-25.

Now I would LOVE to see a stat for this one. I could give you rates for suicide for untreated depression and mental illness (about 30%), confusion over orientation, harassment, etc. But in all my searching I have never come across a statistic for "young men who feel that women are taking too many jobs" suicide rate. Please enlighten me.

 

[jhollas]

Well, it is a British statistic, so it wouldn't account for much in America anyway.
However, I think that you are over-generalising what I meant. "Women are taking my jobs," is certainly not the cause for suicide. Rather, it is the ever-increasing feeling of marginalisation amongst young males, largely due to there being no representation for them whatsoever.
I will concede that perhaps I should have phrased it better, and perhaps what I should have said is that it is the fastest growing cause for suicide in young males, leading as it does to depression, etc. Apologies for not making myself clear.

 

[PrNcSsChRmNg91]

Women complain about men, but then they complain about gays. Can't have it both ways. What do you want?

I don't understand what you mean.

I think a lot of the problem comes down to this:
Increasingly, young women are being told that it's no longer alright for them to sit at home, and be a wife, and take care of their kids. No, they now have to go out and get careers. The problem is that while women are being encouraged to take a greater part in what has been traditionally male roles, (i.e. military, doctors, lawyers, etc.) men have not been encouraged to do the same in traditionally female roles.
The result of this is that young men are feeling more and more like there are no longer any options for them, as women are taking their roles in society. Which, by the way, is now the major cause of suicide in young males aged 18-25.

Interesting. Never heard of that statistic. Do you have a source even though it might only be for Britain? I agree with you, it's socially acceptable for women to have men's roles but not vice versa.