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medical students boycotting lectures on evolution

Jamin4422

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Are you aware that the Shroud first showed up right late 13th early 14th century, which is also in the range of radiocarbon dates found on it.
Are you aware that they got the sample for the test from an area on the shroud that had been repaired from damage from the fire? It does not matter if the Shroud is a man made artifact or if the shroud was made by the resurrection power of God. The Shroud still tells a very, very, very detailed story about the death and resurrection of Christ. I just wonder IF the shroud was made by man then WHY can they not reproduce it to make another one and why can no one tell us how it was made? In fact they did not even know until the camera came out what they had. It was not until the first photograph that they even knew what they had.
 
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Tiberius

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Are you aware that they got the sample for the test from an area on the shroud that had been repaired from damage from the fire?

Are you aware that they tested several different sections of the shroud, all of which indicated a medieval origin? Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin

It does not matter if the Shroud is a man made artifact or if the shroud was made by the resurrection power of God. The Shroud still tells a very, very, very detailed story about the death and resurrection of Christ.

So you'd be happy believing a lie that you know is a lie, provided it makes you feel better?

I just wonder IF the shroud was made by man then WHY can they not reproduce it to make another one...

Except they did. Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin | Reuters

...and why can no one tell us how it was made?

They guy who made the replica seems to be able to explain it...

In fact they did not even know until the camera came out what they had. It was not until the first photograph that they even knew what they had.

Did they have cameras in the 1300s? Because in 1390, Bishop Pierre d'Arcis wrote a memorandum to Antipope Clement VII, stating that the shroud was a forgery and that the artist had confessed. Now, if they had no idea what was on the shroud, why would they be saying this at all? Obviously they knew it had the image of a man on it.

John Calvin also made mention of the image on the shroud way back in 1543.

So don't tell me they had no idea until they started taking photos of it.
 
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Jamin4422

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So you'd be happy believing a lie that you know is a lie, provided it makes you feel better?
How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years. Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie". If you do not believe in the resurrection then that only indicates to me that you do not have eternal life. I assume that you believe that when you die, you will perish and eventually be forgotten. There may no longer be any evidence at all that you were ever alive. Not everyone believes in their eventual annihilation, some people believe in eternal life and to gain eternal life that means they have to believe in the resurrection.
 
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Tiberius

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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact.

Does this make any sense at all when you say it? Are you seriously proposing that an artifact made between 1260 and 1390 is an artifact of events that allegedly happened more than a thousand years earlier?

Seriously, it's like me saying that something made in the 1980s is an artifact of the Kennedy assassination...

In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.

according to some interpretations, yes. Sometimes it seems that whenever a figure appears on anything believers insist it is Jesus or Mary. Why do you think Jesus is appearing on toast. Or the Virgin Mary in a fence post.

But even if it is meant to be the image of Jesus, so what? It's just something else telling a story that's been heard before. The fact that the shroud tells the same story in no way makes the story more credible. Did the story of The Lord of the Rings become more likely to be real when Peter Jackson made his trilogy?


Yeah, use of fear. If you believe in God you'll get eternal life! Exact same tactic used by skin cream companies. Use our cream or you'll look really really old!!!
 
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46AND2

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How is it a lie? He just got done telling you how it is a lie, and you completely ignored it. Instead, you picked one quote out of four or five to which you thought you could come up with a coherent argument...and still failed.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.
But...

We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years.
That's not...

Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie".
But it is... And some people believe in reincarnation, some people believe in the persistence of mind, some people believe in karma and dharma, some people believe that Lord Xenu and our bodies are possessed by the souls of murdered aliens. Where's the evidence?

A relic fabricated 800 years ago is not evidence of an event that took place 2000 years ago. It is, at best, evidence of people's fervent belief 800 years ago, just as Jesus' disciples' martyrdom is evidence of their belief - but neither are evidence of the event.
 
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46AND2

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(snip)... Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie".(snip)...

Jamin, it doesn't matter if the resurrection actually happened or not. Either way, the Shroud is still a lie. It's a hoax. It was purported to be the burial garment of Christ. That is what makes it a lie.

If it was always understood to be an homage to the resurrection and nothing more, then that would be fine. But it was purposely created to deceive people into thinking it was a holy relic.

Even if it was determined to be a hoax and then used as an homage, that would be fine. But you and many others still use it as some sort of archaeological evidence for the resurrection, when it clearly is not.
 
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Jamin4422

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Does this make any sense at all when you say it?
That is not what I said. I does not make any sense because you do not understand the resurrection. Nor do you want to understand the resurrection. You do not want eternal life so why are we even having a conversation about something your not interested in?
 
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Jamin4422

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the Shroud is still a lie. It's a hoax.
Nope, sorry Charlie, your not paying attention again. The Catholic Church does not verify the Shroud one way or the other. They do not say that it is and they do not say that it is not. They leave it up to you to decide for yourself. I wish you could catch the Modern Catholic Church at something. But I think your outgunned, they study this stuff to much and they are more on top of their game then you are.
 
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Jamin4422

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Where's the evidence?
IF your going to be a part of the resurrection then the resurrection power of God would already be working in your life to prepare you for that. IF you have NO evidence then chances are you are NOT going to be resurrected and you will perish or be annihilated. But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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So, in other words, you have no evidence to present. Sure, you may have internal revelation, the whispers of God, the belief that a particular event is divinely inspired (despite not being beyond the statistical norm), but you have no actual evidence you can hand over. Yes? No?

It's amazingly difficult to eke out this kind of information, despite the fact that it either does, or does not exist. Christians tend to fall into two camps: those who foolishly cite bogus 'proofs' of miraculous healing or weeping statues, and those who more intelligently admit that there's no external evidence they can point to. I wonder if you fall into the former or the latter...

But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new.
Actually, the vast majority of Christians (and non-Christians) believe that the Christian afterlife is Heaven (eternal bliss) vs. Hell (eternal suffering). Right or wrong, you're in the minority.

Don't get me wrong, annihilation is far superior to eternal suffering (and side-steps major theological issues), but I'm surprised you think most Christians share this belief.
 
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Jamin4422

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So, in other words, you have no evidence to present.
I got all the evidence I need for me. Your on your own to find your own evidence. I am not going to do it for you. In other words the evidence is subjective not objective evidence.

I'm surprised you think most Christians share this belief.
I know what Christians believe but I also know what the Bible says. So I choose to go with the Bible and not popular opinion. Sinners will perish in their sin and even the memory of them will be no more.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I got all the evidence I need for me. Your on your own to find your own evidence. I am not going to do it for you. In other words the evidence is subjective not objective evidence.
Then you agree with what I wrote. Good. Now, why should I try and find this evidence? Why shouldn't I just live my life as I'm doing right now?

I know what Christians believe but I also know what the Bible says. So I choose to go with the Bible and not popular opinion. Sinners will perish in their sin and even the memory of them will be no more.
That's fine. My point was that, right or wrong, you're in the minority. It's good you don't just go with the popular opinion, it's good you do your own research and come to your own conclusions. But, you implied that your belief was the most common one ("But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new") - it's not.
 
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"Can only can be reproduced by x ray like technology"?
1. That's complete bull****. No one who's got the slightest clue when it comes to logic would write things like that.

1, I'm sure you were raised better than that.

2, The Image is by a burst of light, kind of like an x ray, get over it, it's a Fact.

2. They don't refer to any study, the video in itself isn't even close to being "sort of a study".

The video is a study/examination.

3. I've watched it four times now and I'll tell you right away, I'm not lying when I write this:

Sure you aren't...

Concluding that that would be the shroud of christ, based on that, is a sign of having the conclusion before the evidence.

Nope, all evidence points to this being from Jesus Christ, learn to listen/read and not curse and have an attitude of a 5 year old girl,

Jerusalem Pollen from March/April
over-exaggerated suffering for a crucifixion victim(crucified victims didn't suffer that much, only known is Jesus Christ)
flogging
29AD Pontius Pilate coin on the eye(or eyes) clear giveaway.
peired on side(Jesus Christ was pierced in side instead of getting legs broken)
legs intact(crucified victims would get their legs broken, man on Shroud didn't, also Jesus Christ instead of getting legs broken was prieced in side, another clear giveaway.)
Looks like Historical Jesus Christ
Image caused by a Miracle(Looks like Jesus Christ and is miraclous, obviously Jesus Christ)

but most obvious is crown of thorns, man on shroud = Jesus Christ
 
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So, in other words, you have no evidence to present.

Do you want to play?,



 
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Elendur

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I'm done with you. You have the exact same tactic as another user named 'dad'. I wouldn't be surprised if you were his son (assuming 94 represents your year of birth).

If you want to discuss something with me in the future, make sure you understand these three terms:
Evidence
Proof
Facts

Additional tip: Humbleness, look into it.
 
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Jamin4422

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why should I try and find this evidence?
That is up to you. IF God has something you want, then go for it. If you feel He has nothing to offer then keep on doing what your doing. That is your choice.

you implied that your belief was the most common one
As far as I know all Christians believe in eternal life. That means a resurrection. I do not think many are annihilationists. God is still a God of justice. No one gets away with anything. They still suffer for their sin. But at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ all those who are not saved or redeemed are thrown into the lake of fire and that is the second death. No one comes out of there alive. The Bible says almost nothing directly about what happens to people in the lake of fire. So I can see why that would be a problem for people.
 
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FreeinChrist

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