Mean Calvinism

JM · Mar 20, 2014

Calvinists often get labeled as being mean and nasty because we do not promote the promiscuous love of God but have you guys noticed an increase of nasty, hateful Arminians?

I have.

stenerson · Mar 21, 2014

I've seen plenty of very angry Arminians...Angry that is when the subject of God's sovereignty is bought up..

St_Worm2 · Mar 22, 2014

stenerson said:
I've seen plenty of very angry Arminians...Angry that is when the subject of God's sovereignty is bought up..

Hi Stenerson, you aren't kidding. When I used to teach adult Sunday School classes on Calvinism, the way I knew the class was starting to understand it all was when they started looking at me with anger in their eyes. Where issues of salvation, God's sovereignty, and man's free will intersect, it seems that anything short of man's complete autonomy is simply unacceptable to many/most, even in churches that are supposed to be Reformed (the first church I taught these classes in was a conservative PCUSA church).

JM is right, I do sense that "militant" Arminians are more outspoken today than they have ever been since I became a Calvinist 20+ years ago, but perhaps that's simply because there are more of them?

stenerson · Mar 22, 2014

I think it's also due to the success of Calvinistic ministries and teachers in recent years.

Apologetic_Warrior · Mar 23, 2014

JM said:
Calvinists often get labeled as being mean and nasty because we do not promote the promiscuous love of God but have you guys noticed an increase of nasty, hateful Arminians?

I have.

The best way to deal with them is to recognize them for what they are, to discern the source, and take refuge in God our strength and shield.

How contradictory it is to preach that God loves everyone, and have hatred for our brothers. Even supposing we Calvinists were the enemy, does it not say in Scripture to love your enemies? So how contradictory it is to preach that God loves everyone, and have hatred for your enemies.

As for me, I am that inconsistent Calvinist, struggling more behind the monitor with these principals, struggling and failing to practice them within the household I live in. How contradictory of me! What a miserable sinner I am, ever in need of Christ, especially when I would walk away from it all, except for grace by which I am saved.

You know what? I am mean and nasty in my flesh. The old stone cold me is terrible I do not even like the old me. God has ways of revealing our inner thoughts, ways of bringing to our attention the indwelling sin that remains and the need to engage in spiritual warfare every day. Jesus rose from the dead, and me, I have the most difficult time just rising out of bed!

Pointing out character flaws on an internet forum though is mostly a diversion, a rabbit trail, often just plain ol' ad hom. The fact is, 1.) the most kind-hearted people in the world can have a mean streak in them, and 2.) are capable of giving into the temptation to sin, and 3.) there are "mean and nasty" people in every denomination/sect/religion, etc. in existence, because 3.) the tendency towards meanness is carnal and of the flesh, and even us Christians who have not gone on to be with the Lord remain in bodies of flesh and therefore must deal with the desires of the flesh versus the desires of the Spirit. Lord have mercy on the poor in Spirit.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

Amen Brother! I'm obviously not alone in my struggles...
And let's face it, many Calvinist were former Arminians, who at first glance were not crazy about those doctrines of grace..
Personally when I discovered it I wasn't angry but driven to despair and insecurity. The source I heard it from (on the radio from that Harold Camping guy) presented it in a cold, arrogant way. If I heard and learned it from a compassionate, balanced teacher it would of saved me much angst.

Keachian · Mar 23, 2014

cage-stagers?

J0SHUA · Mar 23, 2014

The Reformed theology is beautiful and shows much more love. Arminians believe they're saved partly from free will. What kind of love from God is that?

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

JM said:
Calvinists often get labeled as being mean and nasty because we do not promote the promiscuous love of God but have you guys noticed an increase of nasty, hateful Arminians?

I have.

Are the elect found even among Arminians who remain Arminians unto death?

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
Are the elect found even among Arminians who remain Arminians unto death?

Yes..Many Arminians are more reformed than they know...They pray for their rebellious, unsaved friends and relatives, knowing that God can save them.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
Are the elect found even among Arminians who remain Arminians unto death?

That looks a lot like a set up question. If I answer it honestly I would say no there aren't. But it has nothing to do with what they believe it has to do with the god they worship.

Of course I am among a small minority of Calvinists who would actually give that answer.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

progmonk said:
cage-stagers?

I don't think that they are mean they are just zealous.

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

stenerson said:
Yes..Many Arminians are more reformed than they know...They pray for their rebellious, unsaved friends and relatives, knowing that God can save them.

When you say they are more reformed then they think do you mean they are more Calvinist than they think? Do Calvinists believe that man's prayers can have an impact on whether others will be elected?

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

twin1954 said:
That looks a lot like a set up question. If I answer it honestly I would say no there aren't. But it has nothing to do with what they believe it has to do with the god they worship.

Of course I am among a small minority of Calvinists who would actually give that answer.

Not a setup. I didn't have any inclination of what the answer would be.

Are you saying they worship a different god because they don't recognize the same characteristics in God that you do (that Calvinists do)?

Is the general theory from the Calvinist perspective that only Calvinists are elect and therefore only Calvinists can obtain eternal life? I'm not looking to debate this - just to know the answer.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
When you say they are more reformed then they think do you mean they are more Calvinist than they think? Do Calvinists believe that man's prayers can have an impact on whether others will be elected?

Not al all. Calvinists do not believe that prayer changes anything. We believe that prayer is not for God but for us. God promised the Israelites that He would do some things for them in Ezek. 36 and He didn't make them conditional. Yet in the last part of verse 36 and verse 37 He says, " I the Lord have spoken it and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel to do it for them.

Prayer doesn't change God's mind or His intentions it change the one who prays.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
Not a setup. I didn't have any inclination of what the answer would be.

Are you saying they worship a different god because they don't recognize the same characteristics in God that you do (that Calvinists do)?

Is the general theory from the Calvinist perspective that only Calvinists are elect and therefore only Calvinists can obtain eternal life? I'm not looking to debate this - just to know the answer.

As I said I am among the minority. I am saying that they do not know God at all as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. To know the only true God and Jesus Christ is eternal life. John 17:3 An idea of a god can never save. Rom. 1:18-23 makes it very clear that man turns the true knowledge of God into a lie.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
When you say they are more reformed then they think do you mean they are more Calvinist than they think? Do Calvinists believe that man's prayers can have an impact on whether others will be elected?

Question number one :Yes

Question number two: Calvinist believe in the means of grace.. The means by which God will bring in His elect.. Among them is evangelism (the teaching, sharing, preaching of the gospel good news. ) And prayer of His saints..Which is why we can pray boldly for even the most vile, blasphemous, rebellious sinner..We believe God saves. The prayer of His saints is described in Revelation as a fragrant incense which comes before the throne of God. It pleases God to include the prayers of His plan to save His elect.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
Not a setup. I didn't have any inclination of what the answer would be.

Are you saying they worship a different god because they don't recognize the same characteristics in God that you do (that Calvinists do)?

Is the general theory from the Calvinist perspective that only Calvinists are elect and therefore only Calvinists can obtain eternal life? I'm not looking to debate this - just to know the answer.

Like he said, he is in the minority of Calvinist that believe that.
Many people come to faith and a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus long before they embrace or even know about the reformed doctrines of grace.
This includes many of the most respected Calvinist today..None of us have a perfect knowledge of God or the gospel and all that trust and believe in the Son, God will make them stand..

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

twin1954 said:
As I said I am among the minority. I am saying that they do not know God at all as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. To know the only true God and Jesus Christ is eternal life. John 17:3 An idea of a god can never save. Rom. 1:18-23 makes it very clear that man turns the true knowledge of God into a lie.

So only Calvinists can be elected and have eternal life according to the Calvinist perspective?

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

stenerson said:
Like he said, he is in the minority of Calvinist that believe that.
Many people come to faith and a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus long before they embrace or even know about the reformed doctrines of grace.
This includes many of the most respected Calvinist today..None of us have a perfect knowledge of God or the gospel and all that trust and believe in the Son, God will make them stand..

You put the words "before they embrace or know" implying that at some point the elect become Calvinists before they die. Am I understanding correctly?

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