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Nadiine

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I'm still working through this loss of salvation doctrine. I was raised to believe in OSAS. Now that I'm a Lutheran, I've been exposed to a different teaching, one that says it is possible to lose your salvation. So it's a lot to work through.
Don't forget to check on the holy Spirit aspect of salvation.

Does He keep packing His bags & making exits and then when people come back He brings His luggage back & forth?
Are we sealed by the Spirit & then unsealed over & over again? & what does "seal" mean?

2 Cor.
21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Are we held by God's power which is causing us to will and do His good pleasure or are we held & sustained only by our own willpower?

I believe there are levels of faith people have (parable of the sower/soil) - not all of them result in saving faith but never take root. The demons believe and shudder.
Instead the ones that are planted in bad soil never remain.

I believe if we're saved, God's power alone is holding & sustaining us in His will - we gave Him our will upon genuine conversion; once we gave our life, He does the rest in leading and sustaining. The true question is, were we ever truly saved - what type of soil are we?

Does a genuine believer who's sealed and inhabited by God's Holy Spirit leave God permanently?
I say no they don't and no they cannot.
Who could stay in God by their own strength? NONE. God either has the power to hold & keep a genuine born again believer, or He does not.

some linkage:
http://www.new-testament-christian.com/eternal-security.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg2122.htm
 
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Criada

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Hmm... don't know if this is at all relevant, but, words are very,very important in scripture... the 'word of the Lord' is used to describe the Law, prophecy, and ultimately Jesus Himself.
God is very much identified with His word... and it is also a sign of His covenant with us:

So, maybe these verses are about being in that covenant, having the law in our hearts rather tan on paper.. so that God's word is part of us, when we come to Him, He actually puts His word in us.
So, having that word, being in that covenant, is a sign of our salvation.. and our own words are a reflection of that somehow.
 
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Zecryphon

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I could start another thread devoted to this topic, if you'd like. It sounds like you're in the OSAS camp, whereas I'm between camps right now. I'm theologically homeless. Can I have some reps to ease my pain? Oh sorry, wrong thread.
 
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JDIBe

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You are saying, if I am understanding you correctly, that it doesn't matter what you confess with your mouth, all that matters is what you DO. That's heresy.

Is it any better to advocate "It doesn't matter what you do, only what you say."?
 
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GreenMunchkin

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This is sort of the direction I was going in with it, too. I was reading James last night, and look what I read!

James 1:26 said:
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

and then...


So it's almost like the tongue leads, as well as reflect! We're all so desensitized to bad language and to hate speak... but it seems like maybe we underestimate how powerful and important our words are.

But the best verses that seem to crystalize it:


Amazing! Isn't that amazing? It makes sense, too. How can the same tongue produce both praise and worship and vileness? So those words will be what say who and what we were.
 
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JDIBe

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Who said that?

I'm saying, I don't think MrJim was advocating the position you were attributing too him. Taking his words to mean that would be just like taking your question and assuming you meant what I asked you.

Faith and works are both important to a Christian. Faith inspires good fruit and good fruit inspires a deeper faith. They both are intertwined in the daily life of a Christian, and in some cases inseperable. Some people may quibble with "the percentages", but all Christian's find both necessary to some degree.

Even OSAS people count works to some degree. If you ask why a person who professes God and then does really terrible things unbecoming of a Christian life they will answer, (say it with me now......)

"They weren't really saved in the first place."
 
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Zecryphon

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So you believe that this calling out to God is something you do? By what? Free will? You have no freewill in relation to salvation. The scriptures clearly teach that you are dead in your trespasses and your sins. What dead man can raise himself to life? This "crying out" is a response to God's work in your life, not something we do to be saved. Look at Romans 10:8, how did the word of faith get into your heart and into your mouth? It had to be put there, and it was by God, when He gives you the gift of faith.


No, it doesn't. The scriptures are clear, we do nothing to save ourselves. This "calling out" is a response not a request for God to come and save you. The only reason you are able to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart is because God has already acted.


Those are works. What you're saying is that until you do something, like cry out to God or take a step of faith, which you while you are dead in your sins, just magically happen to have, even though God hasn't saved you yet, Christ is powerless to save you. Basically, until you do something Christ can't save you. That flies in direct violation of the clear teachings of divine scripture. The scriptures are clear, faith is a gift from God through grace. We don't do anything and we don't prompt God's acting in our lives. To believe what you believe, you have reversed the role between the saved and the savior. You have elevated yourself above Christ, because until you do something, Christ can't save you.

it is believing on Christ for eternal life.. a one off act.. where Christ has previously drawn that person.. and they are responding to the call by asking Him to forgive them of their sin and give them eternal life.

Wrong. Nobody asks to be saved, because nobody desires what is good. I have already posted the verses that proclaim this. Your act of crying out is in response to God already being at work in your life through the power of the Holy Spirit.

so that is salvation by grace through faith in Christ..

No. Salvation by grace through faith in Christ teaches that you do nothing. You in no way aid or assist in your salvation. You want to believe that you do aid or assist in your salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 proves that belief false.


Your problem here is that you're taking Revelation as one chronological vision. You think that the events in chapter 22 happen after the events in chapter 21. They're both talking about the same thing, the same time period. In Revelation 22:12 Jesus says that He is coming soon and bringing recompense to pay everyone for what they have done. Why would that information appear later in the vision, when He already dealth with the sinners in chapter 21? It's not that there is a contradiction in the text, it's that you're reading the text in an incorrect way.


Salvation can be lost and we are warned repeatedly in scripture to guard against this happening.

Here's some sites that explain loss of salvation according to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2647

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2648

And here is what we teach regarding "asking Jesus into your heart"

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2642

I know those people who teach about asking Jesus into your heart, they too have been taught falsely, but the good news is they can be corrected, if they are willing to be.




from

NZguy
 
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Zecryphon

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I'm saying, I don't think MrJim was advocating the position you were attributing too him. Taking his words to mean that would be just like taking your question and assuming you meant what I asked you.

What position did I attribute to him? I think you're reading something in that isn't explicitly stated. I never stated anything even remotely close to the question you asked me, so if you were seriously saying I was promoting the idea that you can do whatever you want while claiming to be a Christian, your assumption was proven false earlier in this thread.


I wouldn't say that they were never saved in the first place based upon some bad things they've done. I'd say and do say that the Christian is both saint and sinner. Christians still fall. We can't look at a sin or two in another person and then say "oh you were never saved" just because they don't fit into a box that's built out of our preconceived notions of how a "true Christian" should behave.
 
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JDIBe

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What position did I attribute to him? I think you're reading something in that isn't explicitly stated.
From your post:
You are saying, if I am understanding you correctly, that it doesn't matter what you confess with your mouth, all that matters is what you DO. That's heresy.

From your words you seem to infer:
1. Jim states confession doesn't matter.
2. Jim believes all that matters is what you do.
3. Jim promotes heresy.

Does that sound like an unreasonable interpretation of the above statement? My post simply asks is it any better to believe the exact opposite of your statement. The point is, the truth is somewhere "in between".

Oh sure, I agree with you that everyone stumbles and God's grace covers our weaknesses, but surely you have known some people who at one point confessed Jesus Christ and then CLEARLY went on their way living a sinful life, in some cases even worse than before. (You might check your own sig. for an example of such people) What about them?
 
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Zecryphon

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My statement to Jim was conditional. It depended upon my understanding him correctly. When he explained what he meant, the issue was dropped. I can't say for certain that I have known anyone else to be engaged in a lifestyle of sin, but I do know Christians who have done and said some really stupid things. Does that make them a non-Christian? No.
 
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Nadiine

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golly, I hope not!!

*faint*
 
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nzguy

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This all really comes down to God's faithfulness to us when He paid the price for us and indwelled us at salvation.

He has said he will never leave nor forsake us in Hebrews

also this:

John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So once we have believed on Christ for eternal life.. we have eternal life.. we have passed from death unto life.


John 3:15-18

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It says He that believeth on Him is not condemned, and believith.. means entrust.. commit.. so it does not necessarily mean a continuous process. There is also Ephesians 2, vs 8-9 where the 'saved' in the verse is in the past tense.. meaning that isn't necessarily a continues process either.

and these verses:

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

so Jesus gives us eternal.. and then we will never perish..

it is His power that keeps our salvation..

we don't have the power to render Christ's sacrifice for us ineffectual.. that is too much power..making ourselves out to be Gods or God-like

sin is paid for, by Christ's sacrifice for us.. at salvation..

Romans 4:

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

our iniquities are forgiven.. sins covered.. sins not imputed!

Hebrews 8:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

again.. God is merciful to the unrighteousness... and our sins and iniquities he remembers no more!

Micah 7:

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

He has cast our sins into the depths of the sea.. He delights in mercy..pardons our iniquity.

Enough said.

over and out

NZguy
 
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Zecryphon

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Here are some verses where God has said He will blot names out of His book of life.

Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin--but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.
Exo 32:34 But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them."
 
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Nadiine

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I'm not here to oppose your post, but I heard a sermon a long time ago the book of life & judgment in Revelation.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

I'd just add that there are several books He has that He'll be judging from, not just 1.
The verse in Exodus doesn't say "book of life"... the book being referred to there could be one of the others we aren't given any information about that will be used during judgment.
(SCARY!).
Even tho in context it may mean that book.

I'd also add that again, this was prior to the crucifixion when the Law was their righteousness, they weren't under grace at this time.
 
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Wade Smith

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"Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."


The righteous are judged by the works of faith.

This "righteousness" is the "righteousness of faith", for we are "justified by faith, without the works of the law."

The "works of faith" (faith without works is dead), are good works brought about BECAUSE of faith.

The righteous DO keep the law, but they do so BECAUSE of faith in Jesus Christ, and more accurately, the Holy Spirit does it through them.

"What shall we say then? Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid, how shall we who are dead unto sin live any longer therein?"

and

Romans 8


1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


====

The "works of the law" are works, which however good they might be in and of themself, are done through self righteousness in an attempt to justify one's self through the law, which in fact could not justify.

for "..by the works of the law shall no man be justified." (gal. 2:16)

Consequently, the unrighteous are judged by the works of the law, which they cannot keep, but tried to keep due to unbelief and SELF righteousness, rejecting the Cross of Christ.

The "unrighteous" are not judged as such due to failure to keep laws, but rather due to Self Righteousness, which is ultimately a lack of faith (if they believed the Gospel, then they would not be self righteous). "If righteousness come by the law, Christ is dead in vain."


=====

In this manner, we see that the "Self Righteous" are judged according to their works, and since some of their works (really all of them) are sinful, they are judged by their sin. Since their sins are not "blotted out" they are judged by their sin, according to the law, and the law makes no excuse for sin. The penalty is death. They are judged by the words of their mouth, which is blasphemy, self righteousness, lies, false doctrine (if they did not believe the truth, they must have believed and taught falsehood), and so on. These are judged by the fact that they bore no fruit, and earned no talents, though they THOUGHT they were bearing fruit, but the only fruit they bare was in fact Cain's vegetables: the works of the flesh.

God demanded the Lamb, and they present the "good" works of their own sinful hands. They want the lion without the Lamb, but it cannot be so. The penalty for all of this, under the law, which is God's standard of righteousness, is death.


On the other hand, For the truly righteous, that is, those who are justified by faith, their sinful works are remembered no more, and in fact, the law itself is remembered no more, as not only have their "sins been washed away", but indeed, the law itself, the "handwriting of ordinances" has been blotted out for their sakes. These are then rewarded according to the works of faith, having already passed the judgement of faith. These are judged and rewarded by how much fruit they bare, by how many talents they earned. both the man who earned ten and the man who earned five entered into the kingdom, but they recieved different rewards for their works of faith. The man who earned ten even recieved what the man who earned none would have recieved, which is in agreement with Jesus' other parables.



So every person is in fact judged by the words of their mouth, whether good or evil, along with every other "work" they ever did, but this is done under a certain context, through the lense of "justification by faith".

In other words, people are justifed by faith, but they are rewarded according to their works.

justification is like finishing the race.

reward is like who gets what medal, but only those who finish get a medal.
 
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GreenMunchkin

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I sort of see what you're saying, but it feels quite confusing and a little tangled in my head. Explain a little more, please?
 
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