Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

BABerean2 said:

Dr. Renald Showers
.

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he is a lot smarter than you are , a lot wiser than you are and he does not continually disparage people who disagree with him
but that is about all you ever do

You teach replacement theology constantly
do a simple google search of a commentary of Romans 11 and you will find it refutes all of your nonsense

9. The Consolation of Israel’s Rejection (Romans 11:1-36)

BibleGateway.com- Commentaries » Romans 11

Quoting from Orthodoxy and Supersessionism, Monachos Forum,


The Orthodox Church and Supersessionism - Page 2 - The nature of the Church

Brian Mcnamee said:

The law of the prophets says a prophet must be 100% right or he is to be stoned as a presumptuous prophet.

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Jesus promised His thief's Coming would befall the first century Christians at Sardis (Revelation 3:3)

As far as I can tell, you claim that did not come to pass.

Do you therefore claim Jesus should be stoned as a presumptous prophet, or does He get a pass, and is allowed to make false predictions?

ClementofA said:

What in your opinion fulfilled Mt.16:27-28? 70 AD?

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The Entire Roman Jewish war, beginning in 66AD while "some standing there" were still alive.

seventysevens said:

he is a lot smarter than you are , a lot wiser than you are and he does not continually disparage people who disagree with him
but that is about all you ever do

You teach replacement theology constantly
do a simple google search of a commentary of Romans 11 and you will find it refutes all of your nonsense

9. The Consolation of Israel’s Rejection (Romans 11:1-36)

BibleGateway.com- Commentaries » Romans 11

Click to expand...

If Bro. Showers doesn't realize...:

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

...then he's not as smart as he should be.

Do those two simple but profound verses appear in anything Bro. Showers has written, or anything you've cited?

If so, we'd like to see what the writers have to say about them.

mkgal1 said:

Quoting from Orthodoxy and Supersessionism, Monachos Forum,

---->The Church is the continuation of Israel. We call it the New Israel, not because it no longer includes the Jewish people, but because it now includes ALL people. It goes beyond what it was; it does not replace what was before.[18]​

The Orthodox Church and Supersessionism - Page 2 - The nature of the Church

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Of course The Church Is Israel.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, many here have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (they count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and "Israel" got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

"Replacing" the everlasting Gospel and eternal Church of Israel with a future temple Judaism, complete with blood animal sacrifices and forced circumcision is the TRUE replacement theology of BACKWARD REDEMPTION.

A concept that, according to the apostles, is a rebuke against the Blood of Christ, a falling away from salvation.

From Ancient Faith blog:

parousia70 said:

Jesus promised His thief's Coming would befall the first century Christians at Sardis (Revelation 3:3)

As far as I can tell, you claim that did not come to pass.

Do you therefore claim Jesus should be stoned as a presumptous prophet, or does He get a pass, and is allowed to make false predictions?

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If you keep reading that same chapter you get more information of when the Lord is coming as He promises the church of Philadelphia
0 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[fn] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

This coming quickly is directly associated with the day of trial coming upon the whole earth. The 2nd coming of Jesus is described in great detail in zech 14. You see Jerusalem being overun by many nations. This is the same as Armageddon. Jesus is then king over all the earth. He is the stone not cut with hands of Dan 2 establishing the kingdom that will never end that covers the earth and leaves no trace of the other kingdoms. This is when Satan is bound the the dead in Christ rule and reign with him upon the earth for 1000 years.

..

Let's try that again.

Parousia70 asked:

Jesus promised His thief's Coming would befall the first century Christians at Sardis (Revelation 3:3)

As far as I can tell, you claim that did not come to pass.

Do you therefore claim Jesus should be stoned as a presumptous prophet, or does He get a pass, and is allowed to make false predictions?

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

From Ancient Faith blog:

------->There is an effort among many Christian scholars today to revise the traditional approach to the question of Israel’s identity.

These scholars argue that the Church must be subtly distinguished from the ‘actual Israel’ in order to do justice to the voice of the Old Testament. But I will argue that this position must be rejected, not simply because it is our tradition, but also because the identity of Israel and the Church undergirds the very messianic claims of Jesus Christ.

The framework within which these scholars set the discussion is flawed, practically guaranteeing an incorrect conclusion. For example, speaking of “supersessionism,” they’ll claim:

According to this view, if Israel has a contribution to the Christian faith, that contribution is exclusively related to the Old Testament times . . . the living Israel has been totally ignored if not rhetorically demonized.[1. Eugen J. Pentiuc, The Old Testament in Eastern Orthodox Tradition, p. 39]​

But this assumes precisely what they’re trying to prove: that Israel according to the flesh constitutes the living Israel, while the Church is ‘grafted onto’ Israel according to the flesh. Such statements are impossible to reconcile with the New Testament. For Paul and the Apostles, every promise God made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ (2 Cor. 1:20).

In order to understand how this works, one must see the Old Testament as a story. That story begins with God’s creation of the world, His investiture of Adam as Royal Priest over his world, and Adam’s failure to fulfill his commission. Adam’s failure incurs the curse of exile, wherein he loses access to the Tree of Life (Gen. 3:17-24). The Lord calls the children of Israel to undo for the world what Adam had done to it. This is why He promises to give Abram a great “name” (Gen. 12:2), in contrast to the builders of Babel who tried to create a great “name” for themselves (Gen. 11:4). While the world had divided into seventy nations (Gen. 10), God promised to restore and reunite the human family through Abraham, saying that through him, all the families of the Earth would be blessed (Gen. 12:3, renewing the primeval blessing given to humanity in Gen. 1:27-28), and that Abraham would become the “father of many nations” (Gen. 17:4-5).​

The first key to understanding the Old Testament is the reality that Israel is Adam. The second is the nature of the Sinai covenant. God’s gift of Torah is meant to lead the New Adam to life. Moses promises that if Israel obeys, she will live, but if she disobeys, she will die (Deut. 30:15). Unfortunately, Moses prophesies that Israel will disobey. And yet, there is light at the end of the tunnel. When Israel is faithful, God circumcises her heart, brings her back from exile, and enables her to truly love the Lord. This, in turn, grants her true “life” (Deut. 30:1-6).

The Torah begins with Adam exiled from the Tree of Life, and ends with Israel, the New Adam, returning from exile to life. This is why Ezekiel prophesies that the return from exile would be constituted by God breathing His Spirit into Israel (the New Adam; cf. Gen. 2:7), and her rising from the dead (Ezek. 37:1-14). He even proclaims that the end of Israel’s exile—and her newfound obedience—will cause the land to turn into Eden (Ezek. 36:35).

Why these prophecies lead to Jesus is seen in the great irony of Deut. 30. Moses promises that once Israel is faithful, God will circumcise her heart, enabling her to be faithful. But how can Israel be faithful with an uncircumcised heart? This is where the Incarnation enters, and Isaiah 59 explains just as well as any writing of the New Testament.

The Lord mourns the plight: Israel is unable to fulfill her calling because she is full of sin (Isa. 59:1–16), but God solves this by “putting on a breastplate of righteousness and coming down” (Isa. 59:17). The Lord Himself becomes an Israelite in order to do for the world what Israel was supposed to. Isaiah 49:3–5 shares a similar point: the Servant of the Lord is named ‘Israel,’ but is called to bring the remnant back from exile.~Israel and the Church: Why Does It Matter? – On Behalf of All​

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Your conclusion on Israel is wrong. In Isaiah 61 a passage which Jesus quoted and applied to himself is proof you are wrong about Israel and all being fulfilled. Jesus read a portion of that passage in Isaiah and stopped mid sentence.
The rest of the passage is also speaking of the same person whom the spirit of the LORD was upon.
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
What is happening in the day of vengeance being described here? Comforting those who mourn in Zion. They shall be called trees of righteousness and the planting of the LORD. The entire passage is a promise to those in Zion and distinctions are made between them and Gentiles. With an everlasting new covenant promised to them at that time in the day of vengeance of God.

In LUKE 1 Zacharias prophesied about Jesus and what He would do.
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

This deliverance promised is still future. Zech 14 shows the day of this deliverance and the day the LORD is king over all the earth. It shows Jerusalem is being overrun by the nations on the day the LORD comes with His saints. It is a day the enemies of God are melted, the mount of Olives splits in two and a new river that flows year round forms. It is a day when it is dark in the day and bright at night. Rev says Satan is bound at the time the false prophet and antichrist are thrown into the fire for 1000 years. It says the nations who were deceived will no longer be deceived until Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years. It says those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast will live and reign for 1000 years.

In Zech 14 we see the LORD coming with his saints just as Jude quote Enoch saying“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

You explained how to see the scriptures to get the idea that the church is Israel. I say if you read and believe what the Bible says will happen you can see Israel still has many promises to be fulfilled. There is going to be a kingdom age on earth for 1000 years.

Brian Mcnamee said:

If you keep reading that same chapter you get more information of when the Lord is coming as He promises the [first century] church of Philadelphia..

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So your answer then is, "Yes, Jesus gets to make false predictions"?

DBBL Post

*

Ugh....

ClementofA said:

How about the transfiguration (v.28)

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He did not "He reward each according to his works." at the Transfiguration, so nope.

2nd coming in our future (v.27)?

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If it's yet in our future, all standing there have tasted death, so no, that does not fit either.

What else ya got?

#

Brian Mcnamee said:

Your conclusion on Israel is wrong. In Isaiah 61 a passage which Jesus quoted and applied to himself is proof you are wrong about Israel and all being fulfilled. Jesus read a portion of that passage in Isaiah and stopped mid sentence.

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Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,a to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

Yes, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 61:1-2 because in that day he proclaimed good news to the poor, freedom for captives, and healed the broken hearted. This is clearly seen fulfilled in luke 4:21-21:

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Brian Mcnamee said:

The rest of the passage is also speaking of the same person whom the spirit of the LORD was upon.
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;

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Was there a day, that occurred later, when Jesus PROCLAIMED the day of vengeance of God? Yes

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Brian Mcnamee said:

That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,

Click to expand...

The true enemies of God's people are not earthly, fleshly empire/people, but sin and the powers of darkness.

Ephesians 6:10-12 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

But praise be to the eternal God who already has rescued us from this:

Colossians 1:13-14
13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Brian Mcnamee said:

But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.

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Already fulfilled
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Zech 14 shows the day of this deliverance and the day the LORD is king over all the earth.

Click to expand...

Christ is already ruler over the kings of the earth:

Revelation 1:55and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Brian Mcnamee said:

. It shows Jerusalem is being overrun by the nations

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Old covenant Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70AD

Brian Mcnamee said:

. It is a day the enemies of God are melted, the mount of Olives splits in two and a new river that flows year round forms. It is a day when it is dark in the day and bright at night. Rev says Satan is bound at the time the false prophet and antichrist are thrown into the fire for 1000 years. It says the nations who were deceived will no longer be deceived until Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years. It says those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast will live and reign for 1000 years.

Click to expand...

I suggest looking at old testament language that is apocalyptic in nature when describing judgment on nations:

Here is 1, for example, that describes impending destruction of Samaria by the Assyrians:

Micah 1:4
For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,

This prophecy was fulfilled when assyrians came and destroyed Samaria

Or how about Isaiah 13:10
10For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light.

What is Isaiah talking about? judgment of Babylon by the medes

Isaiah 13:17 17Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them,
who have no regard for silver
and do not delight in gold.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Your conclusion on Israel is wrong. In Isaiah 61 a passage which Jesus quoted and applied to himself is proof you are wrong about Israel and all being fulfilled. Jesus read a portion of that passage in Isaiah and stopped mid sentence.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,a to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

Yes, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 61:1-2 because in that day he proclaimed good news to the poor, freedom for captives, and healed the broken hearted. This is clearly seen fulfilled in luke 4:21-21:

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Brian Mcnamee said:

The rest of the passage is also speaking of the same person whom the spirit of the LORD was upon.
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Click to expand...

Was there a day, that occurred later, when Jesus PROCLAIMED the day of vengeance of God? Yes

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Brian Mcnamee said:

That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,

Click to expand...

The true enemies of God's people are not earthly, fleshly empire/people, but sin and the powers of darkness.

Ephesians 6:10-12 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

But praise be to the eternal God who already has rescued us from this:

Colossians 1:13-14
13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Brian Mcnamee said:

But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.

Click to expand...

Already fulfilled
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Zech 14 shows the day of this deliverance and the day the LORD is king over all the earth.

Click to expand...

Christ is already ruler over the kings of the earth:

Revelation 1:55and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Brian Mcnamee said:

. It shows Jerusalem is being overrun by the nations

Click to expand...

Old covenant Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70AD

Brian Mcnamee said:

. It is a day the enemies of God are melted, the mount of Olives splits in two and a new river that flows year round forms. It is a day when it is dark in the day and bright at night. Rev says Satan is bound at the time the false prophet and antichrist are thrown into the fire for 1000 years. It says the nations who were deceived will no longer be deceived until Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years. It says those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast will live and reign for 1000 years.

Click to expand...

I suggest looking at old testament language that is apocalyptic in nature when describing judgment on nations:

Here is 1, for example, that describes impending destruction of Samaria by the Assyrians:

Micah 1:4
For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,

This prophecy was fulfilled when assyrians came and destroyed Samaria

Or how about Isaiah 13:10
10For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light.

What is Isaiah talking about? judgment of Babylon by the medes

Isaiah 13:17 17Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them,
who have no regard for silver
and do not delight in gold.

ClementofA said:

Rewards is v.27. Could v.28 be the transfiguration as a preview of the 2nd coming (v.27) which hasn't occurred yet?

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Only if you divorce vs 27 from vs 28, which, when working backwards from the assumption that your paradigm is correct, you have to do in order to make those scriptures fit it, since there is no scriptural instruction to do so.

I think changing ones paradigm to fit the scripture as written, in its context, is the more excellent way.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Your conclusion on Israel is wrong. In Isaiah 61 a passage which Jesus quoted and applied to himself is proof you are wrong about Israel and all being fulfilled. Jesus read a portion of that passage in Isaiah and stopped mid sentence.

Click to expand...

Well....first off, that wasn't only *my* conclusion. That quote was from Ancient Faith...and if you read from what comes from the Orthodox church....you'll see that is the conclusion that was arrived at originally.

I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly: are you suggesting that since Jesus didn't quote Isaiah 61 verbatim then that means all that's prophesied in that passage hasn't been fulfilled?

If so.....I'd like to mention there's another belief as to why Jesus left parts of the text out (and quoted other passages at the same time).





And from this article: Real Restoration: Luke: Jesus Reads Isaiah in the Synagogue | One In Jesus

And as far as the impending judgment, quoting from here: The Flood According to Isaiah 54:7-9