Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

Quoting: Berean Bible Church: When Did the Law End? - Galatians 3:23-25

------>Galatians 3:19 (NASB) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

From Paul's words here, we see that the Law was to be in effect "...until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made." Who was the "seed"? It was Christ. Paul already told us that:

Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
Commenting on the phrase "Until the seed should come" - Adam Clark writes: "The law was to be in force till the advent of the Messiah. After that it was to cease."

So, the Law was in effect until "Christ came." Would you agree with that? Alright then, when exactly did the Law pass away? What are our options? Did the Law pass away at the: Birth of Christ; or at the Cross; or at Pentecost; or at the Parousia? We know that the Law did not cease at the birth of Christ. I know of no one who teaches that it did. There are many, though, who teach that the Law ended at the Cross. Is this correct? No! In 2 Corinthians, speaking of the Law, Paul writes:

2 Corinthians 3:11 (NASB) For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
This verse doesn't help much until you understand that "fades away" is present tense.

2 Corinthians 3:11 (YLT) for if that which is being made useless is through glory, much more that which is remaining is in glory.
Paul was writing this about 25 years after the Cross, and he says that the Law was then "passing away." The author of Hebrews also tells us that as of A.D. 67-68, the law was still in effect:

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB) When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
The law was still in effect, but it was "ready to disappear." In just a couple of years when the temple was destroyed, the Law disappeared:

Hebrews 9:8 (NASB) The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
As long as the temple was still standing, the Law was still in effect, and man did not have access to the presence of God. Now, since the Law was in effect until A.D. 70, we know that it did not end at the birth of Christ or at the Cross or at Pentecost.

Jesus Himself told us exactly when the Law would end:

Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB) "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.
When did Jesus say the Law would end? He says that the Law, all of the Law - the smallest letter or stroke - would not pass away until heaven and earth passed away.

The word "smallest letter" in form was like an apostrophe, not even a letter, not much bigger than a dot. The "stroke" is the little projecting part at the foot of a letter, the little line at each side of the foot of , for example, the letter "t." The message is clear. Not even the smallest part of the law will be abolished until heaven and earth passes away.

So, Jesus is saying that not a single item of the Law - the Old Testament - will ever be changed until heaven and earth pass away. Is that what Jesus said? Yes, it is, then one of two things is true; either we are under the Law - all of it, or heaven and earth have passed away.

Are you under the Law? After 15 messages in the book of Galatians, I hope you know that the answer to that is, "No." Part of the Law was the sacrificial system. Have any of you sacrificed lately? Have you sinned lately? If you have sinned, then you should have sacrificed an animal - the Law required it. When is the last time you offered up a burnt offering? Let's say that you wanted to, and you had the animal for the sacrifice; where would you find a priest?

Numbers 3:5-7 (NASB) Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 6 "Bring the tribe of Levi near and set them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him. 7 "And they shall perform the duties for him and for the whole congregation before the tent of meeting, to do the service of the tabernacle.
The Levitical priests were a special class of qualified ministering priests chosen from among the tribe of Levi. If you can't find a Levitical priest, then you cannot keep the law:

Hebrews 7:11 (NASB) Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
The "if" is a second class condition meaning: "If and it's not." Perfection did not come through the Levitical priesthood. The parenthetical statement, "for on the basis of it the people received the law...." is a reminder of the close interdependence between the priestly and the legal systems. The law and the priesthood belonged together for the simple reason that since the law, representing the divinely ordered standard of conduct and character was universally broken (Romans 3:9-23), there was a continuous necessity for the ministry of reconciliation, which the Levitical priesthood provided, even though imperfectly.

The writer is saying that the Mosaic Law was given in order to validate the Levitical priesthood. If the Levitical priesthood is taken out of the Mosaic Law, nothing of meaning is left. Why? Because the whole purpose of having a religious system is to bring people into a personal relationship with the living God. If there are no priests to represent the people, then there is no reason to have a religious system.

It is very important that we understand what the writer is communicating in this verse. The concept is that the Levitical priesthood and the Mosaic Law are inseparable. If someone wanted to incorporate the Mosaic Law into their religious system today, they would also have to incorporate the Levitical priesthood, because it was the basis for the Mosaic Law. So, if there is no Levitical priesthood today, then the Old Testament law cannot be obeyed, and we are all in sin unless heaven and earth passed away.

dqhall · Mar 28, 2018

mkgal1 said:
So the Old Covenant is still in affect?

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.~Matthew 5:18

Quoting from this site: Heaven and Earth Shall Pass Away

We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.

In Deuteronomy 32:1, in the song of Moses, God is talking to Israel when He says: "Give ear, 0 ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, 0 earth, the words of my mouth"
In the song of Moses, God is depicting the fate of Israel when He says: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (vs. 22).

Is God here talking about burning up the earth? No, he is talking about bringing judgment upon Israel.

In Matthew 24:35 Jesus is talking about the passing away of Israel when He speaks of heaven and earth passing away. This is what the entire 24th chapter of Matthew is about - the passing away of old Israel.

Now there will be a new Israel - a new heavens and earth; but more about that later.
In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people.
*****************
Also....from N.T. Wright:

------>But in the Bible ‘heaven’ isn’t ‘the place where people go when they die.’ In the Bible heaven is God’s space while earth (or, if you like, ‘the cosmos’ or ‘creation’) is our space. And the Bible makes it clear that the two overlap and interlock. For the ancient Jews, the place where this happened was the temple.~N.T. Wright's Response to Stephen Hawking on Heaven

and from: When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

----->Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

While Jesus keeps the law against adultery, and forbids thinking about doing adultery or fornication, Jesus did not allow a group of men to stone an adulteress as is required by the law. The law against murder may supercede the law requiring the people to stone adulterers.

World English Bible - John 8 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Now very early in the morning, he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him. He sat down, and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman taken in adultery. Having set her in the middle, 4 they told him, “Teacher, we found this woman in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now in our law, Moses commanded us to stone such women." What then do you say about her?” 6 They said this testing him, that they might have something to accuse him of.

But Jesus stooped down, and wrote on the ground with his finger. 7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

9 They, when they heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest, even to the last. Jesus was left alone with the woman where she was, in the middle. 10 Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, “Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?”

11 She said, “No one, Lord.”

Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”
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As for fire burning to the roots of mountains in the Song of Moses, that reminds me of a volcano and super heated magma beneath mountains. There was volcanic activity in western Arabia, also Ethiopia, Turkey, Italy and Sicily.

joshua 1 9 · Mar 28, 2018

This is all explained in Matthew chapter 24: "3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus is answering two questions at the same time. One has to do with Israel under the old covenant and the other question has to do with the church and the new covenant. We need to understand shadow and types or what Cahn in his best selling book refers to as a paradigm. So we can see the end of an age when the Temple is destroyed and we see the connection between this and the end of the age of the gentiles.

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

dqhall said:
While Jesus keeps the law against adultery, and forbids thinking about doing adultery or fornication, Jesus did not allow a group of men to stone an adulteress as is required by the law. The law against murder may supercede the law requiring the people to stone adulterers.......[etc]

Maybe I missed it, did you answer the question about the Law (Old Covenant) being in affect still?

Jesus' birth was the beginning of the making the "first covenant obsolete".....but the destruction of the Temple was the "disappearing" part. As Joshua wrote about.....we need to learn to understand shadows in Scripture.

dqhall · Mar 28, 2018

joshua 1 9 said:
This is all explained in Matthew chapter 24: "3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus is answering two questions at the same time. One has to do with Israel under the old covenant and the other question has to do with the church and the new covenant. We need to understand shadow and types or what Cahn in his best selling book refers to as a paradigm. So we can see the end of an age when the Temple is destroyed and we see the connection between this and the end of the age of the gentiles.

The temple was destroyed by the Roman army during the Jewish revolt of 66 - 70 AD. The first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus left us a detailed account in his writings.

THE WARS OF THE JEWS
OR HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM
By Flavius Josephus
The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

Jesus prophesied on the Mount of Olives about wars, rumors of war, and other disasters that were coming. War is not a sign of the end. Wars have been with mankind for thousands of years. Before the end, the Gospel must be preached to all nations.

Matthew 24:13 (WEB) But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved. 14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The second coming of Jesus will be instantaneous:

Matthew 24:7 (WEB) For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

dqhall said:
The second coming of Jesus will be instantaneous:

Has there been a post in this thread that's claiming the destruction of the Temple was the second coming? I believe I've personally stated a few times that the "coming of the Son of Man" is NOT the second coming.

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

dqhall said:
Matthew 24:7 (WEB) For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

This is Matthew 27:*27* that you're quoting (not 7). Read a bit further.....why are there carcasses that vultures are gathering around?

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.~Matthew 24:27

mkgal1 · Mar 28, 2018

Quoting N.T. Wright:

“But why should we think – except for reasons of ecclesiastical and scholarly tradition – that parousia means ‘the second coming’, and/or the downward travel on a cloud of Jesus . . .' Parousia means ‘presence’ as opposed to apousia, ‘absence’; hence it denotes the ‘arrival’ of someone not at the moment present; and it is especially used in relation to the visit ‘of a royal or official personage’” (Victory, 341).

For the ordinary sense of “arrival,” Wright points to 1 Cor. 16:17; 2 Cor. 7:6,7; 10:10; Phil. 1:26; 2:12. From this, he concludes, “the most natural meaning for the word as applied to Jesus would be something like ‘arrival on the scene’, in the sense of ‘enthronement’” (Victory, 341, n. 95).

Here the "coming" of the Son of Man in v. 30 is an allusion to Daniel 7:13-14 which speaks not of a "coming to earth" from heaven but of a "coming to God" in heaven to receive vindication and authority. This "coming" refers to an event "whereby the authority of Jesus is vindicated over the Jewish establishment which has rejected him" (344).

See esp. Mt. 26:64. “Here the Lord informs the high priest and the other members of the Jewish Sanhedrin that they will ‘see’ His coming. Obviously, they are not still alive today! Jesus must be referring to an event in their first-century life spans” (Gentry, 53). Wright explains:

“Jesus is not . . . suggesting that Caiaphas will witness the end of the space-time order. Nor will he look out of the window one day and observe a human figure flying downwards on a cloud. It is absurd to imagine either Jesus, or Mark, or anyone in between, supposing the words to mean that. Caiaphas will witness the strange events that follow Jesus’ crucifixion: the rise of a group of disciples claiming that he has been raised from the dead, and the events which accelerate towards the final clash with Rome, in which . . . Jesus will be vindicated as a true prophet. In and through it all, Caiaphas will witness events which show that Jesus was not, after all, mistaken in his claim, hitherto implicit, now at last explicit: he is the Messiah, the anointed one, the true representative of the people of Israel, the one in and through whom the covenant God is acting to set up his kingdom" (Victory, 525).

ClementofA · Mar 29, 2018

parousia70 said:
Why do you personally view this language symbolically in one part of the Bible but hyper-literally elsewhere?

The multiple views in the OP are not my own but as stated:

"There are various Futurist interpretations of Matt.16:28..."

What in your opinion fulfilled Mt.16:27-28? 70 AD?

ClementofA · Mar 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Has there been a post in this thread that's claiming the destruction of the Temple was the second coming? I believe I've personally stated a few times that the "coming of the Son of Man" is NOT the second coming.

What Scriptures do you see as referring to the "second coming"?

When was Matthew Mt.16:27-28 fulfilled?

ClementofA · Mar 29, 2018

jesus316 said:
There is another interpretation. John saw the second coming of Christ and wrote of it in Revelation chapter 19.

Okay. Who were the other/s referred to here:

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Mt.16:28).

What about v.27:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. “

ClementofA · Mar 29, 2018

4x4toy said:
My vote is Peter, James and John witnessing the transfiguration also

How would you answer this:

An Exegesis of Matthew 16:27-28 | Tree Of Life Ministries

ClementofA · Mar 29, 2018

claninja said:
Let's look at the parallel accounts to get the full picture:

Matthew 16:27-28
A.)For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “B.)Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the C.) Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark 8:38-9:1
A.) If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” And he said to them, “ B.)Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the C.) kingdom of God has come with power.”

Luke 9:26-27
A.) Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. “ B.) Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see C.) the kingdom of God.”

A.) Where did Jesus come in his Father's glory? Would this be earth (2nd coming) or heaven (ascension)? The greek word from "come" means came, go, going, went, entered, arrive. So it is not necessarily a specific direction. Only the context can tell us the direction. So when did Jesus come/go/arrive/enter in his Fathers glory?

Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
Revelation 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

B.) Who are the some standing in the presence of Jesus that would see the coming? the disciples obviously

C.) The son of man coming in his kingdom = the coming of the kingdom of God. When would the son of man come in his kingdom?

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

Daniel 7:13-14
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Take an honest look at the parable of the 10 minas in Luke 19:11-27.

Are there multiple generation of servants in this parable? In other words, did the servants who were given the minas die before the king returned? or were they the same servants that received the original minas from the king?

And who are the enemies (citizens) that didn't want the king to rule over them that the king destroys upon his return?

11As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13Calling ten of his servants,a he gave them ten minas,b and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!c Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Good info. Thanks.

When would you say v.27 was/will be fulfilled?

When did he/will he "reward each person according to what they have done" (v.27)?

Was v.28 fulfilled within the lifetimes of those He spoke to?

BABerean2 · Mar 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Hebrews 8:13 (NASB) When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
The law was still in effect, but it was "ready to disappear." In just a couple of years when the temple was destroyed, the Law disappeared:

No.

Christ fulfilled every letter of the Old Covenant during His life and death.
There was no 40 year period when both systems were in effect, based on the following scripture.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of His Son's sacrifice, instead of 40 years later.

Mar_15:38 Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Paul did not tell the Galatian believers that they had a choice of how to be saved.

Gal_2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."

When taken in context with the rest of the New Testament, Hebrews 8:13 does not prove a dual-covenant time period between Calvary and 70 AD.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (From Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Present tense, when the Book of Hebrews was written.)

.

claninja · Mar 29, 2018

ClementofA said:
When would you say v.27 was/will be fulfilled?

When did he/will he "reward each person according to what they have done" (v.27)?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

I guess I would start by looking at several parables of Jesus: the 10 minas, the wicked tenants, the marriage feast

1.) Parable of the 10 minas
who are the enemies/citizens that did not want Jesus to reign over them?
Luke 9:14, 27
But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us. But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Who are the servants that the king gave minas to BEFORE HE LEFT to claim a kingdom?
Luke 19:13,15-17
Calling ten of his servants,a he gave them ten minas,b and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come
When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant

2.) Parable of the Wicked Tenants
Who are the wicked tenants that killed the vineyard owners son?
Matthew 21:33,38-40 There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 38But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?”

Who is the vineyard taken from and given to?
matthew 21:43-45 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

3.)Parable of the Wedding Feast
Who are the original guests that rejected the wedding invite and killed the kings servants?
matthew 22:2-7 The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servantsa to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city

Who are the wedding guests that attend the wedding feast?
Matthe 22:9-10
Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

______________________________________________________________________________

From each parable, we get a glimpse at the coming of Christ and the kingdom of heaven

It appears that the citizens/enemies, wicked tenants, and original wedding guests are old covenant unfaithful Israel.

It also appears that at the coming of the king/owner of the vineyard, the citizens/enemies, wicked tenants, original wedding guests are slaughtered. Was there a time when unfaithful old covenant Israel was slaughtered?

It also appears that the servants/people producing fruit/anyone invited to the wedding feast are rewarded also when the king returns, with the exception of the unfaithful servant and the unclothed wedding guest.

What were the disciples waiting for? Christ's return, justice for servants of God who were murdered by unfaithful old covenant, and the resurrection.

Were they rewarded? Have they gone to heaven yet?

DreamerOfTheHeart · Mar 29, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The text in Matthew doesn't use the word "army"---it merely says "with his angels" (it's in Revelation that "army" is used).

I was thinking Jude and II Peter

Army is simply a word which fits the condition.

mkgal1 · Mar 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
No.

Christ fulfilled every letter of the Old Covenant during His life and death.
There was no 40 year period when both systems were in effect, based on the following scripture.

I worded that poorly. You're right.....the Old Covenant was obsolete....but it was still being used (wrongly).....not "in effect".

ClementofA · Mar 30, 2018

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BABerean2 · Mar 30, 2018

ClementofA said:
" “The Coming Apocalypse” by Renald Showers (9780915540075) is a 118 page book examining ‘Replacement Theology”, which is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel in the plan and purposes of God. Reformed teachers tell us that many of the promises that God made to Israel must be ‘spiritualised’. When the Bible speaks of Israel being “restored to the land”, this really means that the Church will be blessed by God with enlargement and expansion. Likewise the promises made with ‘Israel’ are actually fulfilled in the Church today. Showers tackles this head on. Say he, “It’s wrong!” He gives a historical review of the teachings of church leaders of past generations such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, Dionysius, Cyprian, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Augustine and Martin Luther. He explains how Replacement Theology affected both Biblical ecclesiology and eschatology in powerful and deleterious ways after the pre-millennialism of the first three centuries was discarded in favour of a-millennialism. Showers rightly contends that if God cannot be trusted to keep His promises to Israel, then how can Christians trust Him to keep His promises to them? This is brought out by Paul in Romans 9-11. “The Coming Apocalypse” is a book to be read and reread."

15 Must-Have Books on Eschatology | Web Truth

Dr. Renald Showers is a promoter of John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine, brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

Replacement Theology:

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

It replaces a Church which began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites and later included Gentiles, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

It replaces the "son" as the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

It replaces a Gospel only of Grace, with one that includes race.

It ignores the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

It replaces the New Covenant of Christ, with a "treaty" broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel 9:27.

It is the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, which is the true form of "Replacement Theology".

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jgr · Mar 31, 2018

ClementofA said:
" “The Coming Apocalypse” by Renald Showers (9780915540075) is a 118 page book examining ‘Replacement Theology”, which is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel in the plan and purposes of God. Reformed teachers tell us that many of the promises that God made to Israel must be ‘spiritualised’. When the Bible speaks of Israel being “restored to the land”, this really means that the Church will be blessed by God with enlargement and expansion. Likewise the promises made with ‘Israel’ are actually fulfilled in the Church today. Showers tackles this head on. Say he, “It’s wrong!” He gives a historical review of the teachings of church leaders of past generations such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, Dionysius, Cyprian, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Augustine and Martin Luther. He explains how Replacement Theology affected both Biblical ecclesiology and eschatology in powerful and deleterious ways after the pre-millennialism of the first three centuries was discarded in favour of a-millennialism. Showers rightly contends that if God cannot be trusted to keep His promises to Israel, then how can Christians trust Him to keep His promises to them? This is brought out by Paul in Romans 9-11. “The Coming Apocalypse” is a book to be read and reread."

15 Must-Have Books on Eschatology | Web Truth

The old covenant carcass that Bro. Showers constantly attempts to exhume has been dead, decayed, and vanished for about 2,000 years (Hebrews 8:13).

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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I Am What I Am

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