Masturbation question

[The Gregorian]

First, to clarify, I'm NOT calling into question the teaching of any denomination, I'm honestly looking for the viewpoint of people who may have a different viewpoint than I do.

There was another thread which was a bit too vague, but someone said something I didn't get a chance to ask for clarification of:

The reasons why masturbation is basically a sin are clear to anyone who has been through it. It's patently "sham", it feels like a poor second-best, it puts your sexual responses out of whack in the long run, and it encourages sexual phantasising. It's no big deal as a sin, but it is definitely something wrong.

What about a man or woman fantasizing about their mate? I can see the argument against masturbation by showing what happened to onan because he was spilling his seed... but a female loses nothing in the process, so why stop them? I definitely agree MOST masturbation is sinful because people tend to lust over things which are not theirs... and that is wrong (remember bathsheba)... but is all sexual fantasy wrong? If you're fantasizing/lusting over what IS yours, your spouce. And before you answer, you may want to read through the Song of Solomon again. (I know I asked a question that can be given a positive or negative response, but out of respect for this thread, I'd like to hear the response of people who view such things as wrong so I can understand your point of view)

the reason was explained very beautifully quite recently, in various Papal documents (Humanae Vitae, Mulieris Dignitatem, John Paul 2's teachings on "The Theology of the Body"). It has to do with the fact that sex is not only procreative, but also unitive - it is not exclusively for child-bearing, but also for expressing and deepening the love that unites a married couple.

I absolutely agree with that... and that in mind, how is the use of contraseptives wrong? (Don't want to hear from people who don't think it's wrong... I want to hear the reasoning for people who DO think it's wrong in respect for this forum)

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I belive it's a sin because lust in general is a sin, and people usually do this cause they give in to lust.

Contraceptives are wrong cause I believe we should stay open to life, and not interefere with God's will

 

[The Gregorian]

Lust can't always be wrong, Have you read the song of solomon? Is it wrong to have lust for your spouse? Therefore is masturbation wrong if a partner is lusting over his or her spouse?

The contraceptive thing was in response to the pope's edict that "sex is not only procreative, but also unitive." If intimacy is viewed as beneficial because of it's unitive qualities... Are all forms of non-reproductive affection considered bad? Or where is the line drawn? Obviously a husband and wife kissing without "finishing the deed" isn't wrong... but at what point are they obligated to "follow through?" Must the man be allowed to "release" any time any genitles are intentionally contacted? Similarly, is the man obligated to "fulfill" the woman, or is sexual obligation one way?

And what if the man simply has problems "finishing?" Sometimes a man can get tired, or distracted before he's "done." ... is sexual intercourse sinful (even among spouces) if the male can't guarantee "execution?" Because psychologically, that could make the matter worse by putting him under pressure not only to satisfy his partner, but knowing that God requires that he "finish." ... which can make it difficult.

(I'm sorry, this isn't supposed to sound silly... That's just how I word things... I tend to look at the light side of any given situation... and I like trying to understand things from every possible viewpoint. I am really trying to understand your guys' viewpoint, not preach my own, but I have to know your interpretation of a lot of different possibilities to fully grasp the whole situation.... no pun intended.)

 

[Gwendolyn]

There is a very significant difference between lust and desire for one's own spouse. Desire for one's own spouse is hardly sinful. It is beautifully described for us in the Song of Solomon.

 

[gabrielListens]

Yes it is a sin when one lusts after someone other than their spouse. If one is single, it is the same as committing fornication in your heart.

Yes we all fall to temptation since we are not perfect:

"For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."
Matthew 15:19

...and YES we will be forgiven when we repent...just as we are forgiven for lies, evil ideas, slander, etc.

 

[Sianelle]

Yes it is a sin when one lusts after someone other than their spouse. If one is single, it is the same as committing fornication in your heart.
<snip>

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[benedictaoo]

Lust is always bad because it's objectifying ones spouse for gratification. Sex is about giving, not getting.

Masturbation is wrong for both sexes for that reason.

It is also dangerous because it's isolating, the opposite of giving.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yes it is a sin when one lusts after someone other than their spouse. If one is single, it is the same as committing fornication in your heart.

Yes we all fall to temptation since we are not perfect:

"For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."
Matthew 15:19

...and YES we will be forgiven when we repent...just as we are forgiven for lies, evil ideas, slander, etc.

Lusting for you spouse is also a sin too.

 

[hawko]

Masturbation is a sin, a very serious sin. A person who is addicted to this type of practice needs to go to sacramental confession, not only so he (or she) can be forgiven, but also to strengthened by this sacrament. Besides it being a sin of impurity, it is also a sin of selfishness, since a person is not involved in a sexual act with their spouse, but only with themselves.

 

[BAFRIEND]

It is a sin because the Church says it.

 

[benedictaoo]

Taking the religious moral aspect out of it, I don't know if it's true but I read somewhere years ago, I don't know if was a physiology editorial in a magazine or what but it also is a good way to become sexually disordered. When masturbation is what one becomes used to, it can be difficult to have relations with an actual person because that particular stimulation is what does it for the person. If they entered into a relationship with a actual person, they would have to re train themselves.

 

[Globalnomad]

I think Benedicta made the most valid point. Masturbation is wrong because it isolates you instead of contributing to unitive love. (I am the one who worte that passage you quote in the OP, and I think that Benedicta put it better now. I had forgotten the all-important point of self-seeking, which is the real definition of lust, and is also the reason why masturbation is wrong).

The examples you give don't sound like masturbation ... In particular, if the man finds that he cannot "finish", so he "pleasures" his wife manually rather than leaving her excited and unsatisfied - that's a specific point that was never really defined in our moral teaching. It's certainly a loving and unselfish thing to do.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Oh my! I was just about to post a thread asking just where I can get official information on what is sexually permissable for Catholics as there are sites that say conflicting things. May I ask a question: I do not agree that people always touch out of lust. I think we touch because we naturally become aroused and simply act on that natural response. Wemen for example become naturally aroused before their menses and men...well, we all know about men! So what would your response be to that? Thanks!

 

[Globalnomad]

As we said in the first few posts. You think it is a quick solution to the problem of sexual arousal, but in fact it's not: it strengthens the sexual instinct, it interferes with your normal sexual responses for the day you marry, and it DOES encourage - almost inevitably - selfish sexual fantasies. Sorry dear, but the correct response is: just fight the temptation.

 

[Globalnomad]

Taking the religious moral aspect out of it, I don't know if it's true but I read somewhere years ago, I don't know if was a physiology editorial in a magazine or what but it also is a good way to become sexually disordered. When masturbation is what one becomes used to, it can be difficult to have relations with an actual person because that particular stimulation is what does it for the person. If they entered into a relationship with a actual person, they would have to re train themselves.

Yes, that's true also. I wouldn't use such a grave word as "sexual disorder", but it IS a problem.

 

[DarkNLovely]

As we said in the first few posts. You think it is a quick solution to the problem of sexual arousal, but in fact it's not: it strengthens the sexual instinct, it interferes with your normal sexual responses for the day you marry, and it DOES encourage - almost inevitably - selfish sexual fantasies. Sorry dear, but the correct response is: just fight the temptation.

Hehe! I could not disagree more! But anyhoo, thanks. I guess.

But I would like to know what scriptual support Catholics use and again if there is an OFFICIAL site that explains all this stuff, so nobodys life comes under scrutiny! Thanks.

 

[Globalnomad]

Don't come to me for Scriptural support! As I said in another thread, I think our traditional Scriptural reference - Onan's story - is so miserably weak, it's just painful. ("Byzantine Church fathers experimenting unsuccessfully with Sola Scriptura", I believe I called it)

But we have Church tradition, which as you know is a valid source for us... and we have the natural-ethics argument I brought up. I wouldn't be so quick to disagree, if I were you.... I've been through it and I can tell you, I am talking out of experience. Listen, just try to keep it to a minimum and NEVER fantasize about real live people, OK?

 

[Gwendolyn]

Hehe! I could not disagree more! But anyhoo, thanks. I guess.

But I would like to know what scriptual support Catholics use and again if there is an OFFICIAL site that explains all this stuff, so nobodys life comes under scrutiny! Thanks.

Please remember that you are in a Catholic forum, and that our beliefs are based on a two-thousand-year-old tradition. Our beliefs were in formation before Scripture was even written down, so Scripture is not our only authority; we look to Holy Tradition, which has been preserved and passed down through the centuries, as another facet of Authority.

Scripture constantly tells us to flee immorality (2 Tim 2:22), avoid sexual immorality and impropriety, refrain from falling into sexual sin, fornication, and adultery. Just because Scripture does not say something explicit, like "Thou shalt not touch thy privates", that does not mean that something is free game.

Masturbation is, by its very nature, a sexual act. It involves sexual arousal, sexual stimulation, and sexual release. Sure, you can touch thinking about chlorophyll and what makes the leaves change colour if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you are sexually stimulating yourself because you desire sexual release. Just because you don't INTEND something to be immoral, that does not mean it is automatically made acceptable.

Catholics believe that this is sinful, we have always believed that it is sinful, and we do not believe that just because someone really, really wants a personal sin to be "okay", that that person will suddenly be absolved of all sinfulness.

That is the problem with sin. We always want it to be "okay".

 

[D'Ann]

I recommend reading "Theology Of The Body". It does a beautiful job in explaining the difference between desire and lust. It talks about how we are to please our spouse and give to our spouses and when we only 'take care' of our own needs for our own pleasure and gratification, it becomes selfish and takes away from the love that two people should share together in that way.

I'll get some links to add into the post that prayerfully will give you some guidance and help in understanding why masturbation is hurtful to one's own well being and soul as well as for their marriage (if they are married).

Theology of the Body link Christopher West

GENERAL AUDIENCES: JOHN PAUL II'S THEOLOGY OF THE BODYPope John Paul II

 

[MoNiCa4316]

well basically, sex is a unitive act between two people: a husband and wife. It must come from love, be unitive and unselfish and not perverted/cruel in any way, and the couple must be open to life - to potentially having a baby.

Anything different than this is taught to be a disordered view.
Whether it's using contraception, masturbation (not unitive in any way, AND selfish), outside of marriage, with same-sex partners, etc.

that's the Church teaching..