Mass-confusion

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

Waffer to flesh - they believe the waffer becomes Christ body.....
So they cannibilizes the flesh also forbidden by God

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

2. Jesus has Not risen therefore there is NO salvation in this state.

3. (the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass)(see Heb 12:2)

we see 2 things here both wrong:
A) Heb 6:6 says: re-crucifying Christ puts Him to Open shame - Heb 12:2
B) there is NO Remission of sins without the Blood (Heb 9:22)


4. Jesus has long hair and Paul says men like that are a shame (1Cor 11:14)

5. This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father."

This also has things wrong.

A. Were told of a ONE TIME OFFERING of Christ (heb 10:10)
Heb 10:11 and EVERY Priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING Oftentimes the SAME SACRIFICES which can NEVER take away sins.


We are also told NOT to make ANY IMAGE of ANYTHING in Heaven and that includes Jesus hanging dead on a cross....(Ex 20:4) notice were also NOT TO BOW DOWN to these statues (images of any kind)

Romans 1:23 and Changed the uncorruptable God into an IMAGE made like to corruptable man - Again were NOT to make images of ANYTHING IN HEAVEN! or on earth or under the sea.


The mass is not only unbiblical and wrong but completely not needed!



Now I know people will come on and defend the mass but I think scripture speaks for itself Very Clearly on the subject!

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

We can think of Christ dead on a cross or alive at the right hand of power!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

Waffer to flesh - they believe the waffer becomes Christ body.....
So they cannibilizes the flesh also forbidden by God

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

2. Jesus has Not risen therefore there is NO salvation in this state.

3. (the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass)(see Heb 12:2)

we see 2 things here both wrong:
A) Heb 6:6 says: re-crucifying Christ puts Him to Open shame - Heb 12:2
B) there is NO Remission of sins without the Blood (Heb 9:22)


4. Jesus has long hair and Paul says men like that are a shame (1Cor 11:14)

5. This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father."

This also has things wrong.

A. Were told of a ONE TIME OFFERING of Christ (heb 10:10)
Heb 10:11 and EVERY Priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING Oftentimes the SAME SACRIFICES which can NEVER take away sins.


We are also told NOT to make ANY IMAGE of ANYTHING in Heaven and that includes Jesus hanging dead on a cross....(Ex 20:4) notice were also NOT TO BOW DOWN to these statues (images of any kind)

Romans 1:23 and Changed the uncorruptable God into an IMAGE made like to corruptable man - Again were NOT to make images of ANYTHING IN HEAVEN! or on earth or under the sea.


The mass is not only unbiblical and wrong but completely not needed!



Now I know people will come on and defend the mass but I think scripture speaks for itself Very Clearly on the subject!

We can think of Christ dead on a cross or alive at the right hand of power!

We have been over this road before, so here goes again...

The Western Mass as historically and presently used by the Vatican Church, the Anglican Communion and the Lutheran Churches; as well as the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Churches (while slightly different) are completely composed of direct quotes taken from Scripture, or thoughts derived from Scripture. The "Propers" appointed for each day of the year contain readings from Scripture, Psalms, and prayers based on those readings and psalms.

The totally unfounded allegations of worshipping a "dead Christ" is crap; if you had ever attended Mass and paid attention, you would hear virtually all prayers end with a doxology which, while worded somewhat differently, says the same thing (note the highlight): Through Jesus Christ, Thy dear Son, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.

Even what is done, and what it teaches is derived from the direct, literal interpretation of Scripture.

Spare us and the rest of CF the grief, go back and read some of your own old threads and those of other anti-Catholic, anti-orthodox who find great sport in flogging an already dead and buried horse.

If the motivation is hate; take it elsewhere; if it's inscurity in one's own faith that needs to slam that of others to feel good, maybe try an other old historic practice, mortification and self flagellation.

 

[Shane R]

These are wonderful straw men who have beaten down. Clearly you are not acquainted with the Church Fathers, who addressed these very allegations from the second century onward. You must understand mystery to understand the basic concept of the mass, the 'un-bloody sacrifice'.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

These are wonderful straw men who have beaten down. Clearly you are not acquainted with the Church Fathers, who addressed these very allegations from the second century onward. You must understand mystery to understand the basic concept of the mass, the 'un-bloody sacrifice'.

Hi Shane, it's been a while! Last time those straw men got "beaten down", we should have threw a lit match at them!

 

[Knee V]

We sing this at every Liturgy, directly after the Second Antiphon:

"Only Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary,
Who without change didst become man and wast crucified, O Christ our God,
Trampling down death by death, Who art one of the Holy Trinity,
Glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us."

We sing this every Pascha and for the next 40 days until the Ascension is celebrated:

"Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life."

One could hardly say that we "leave Christ on the cross."

On another note, though, Christ is also "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8). His crucifixion was a one-time event. But although it occurred once in time, it is also eternal.

What do you make of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10? What does it mean that to partake of the bread is to commune with Christ's body? And what does it mean that to partake of the cup is to commune with Christ's blood?

 

[Knee V]

We can think of Christ dead on a cross or alive at the right hand of power!

Or we can think of both, as both are necessary for a proper knowledge of who Christ is.

 

[Albion]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

But since it actually is NOT blood, no matter what their doctrine says, is it really Cannibalism? I'd have to say that THINKING it's blood doesn't qualify.

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

He was on a cross. Later he went to be with the Father. You just don't know your facts on this one.

 

[PaladinValer]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

...as if all the below are distinctive to them...typical.

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

Except

1. Most Christians believe it. The EOC, my AC, the Continuers, the OOC, the Old Catholic bodies, Lutherans, and Moravians agree in Real Presence theology.
2. St. John chapter 6 proves the whole vampirism argument null and void.

Waffer to flesh - they believe the waffer becomes Christ body.....
So they cannibilizes the flesh also forbidden by God

See my immediate above.

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

Or it may be a reminder of "this is what He did for us; remember it"

Argument destroyed.

2. Jesus has Not risen therefore there is NO salvation in this state.

See my immediate above.

3. (the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass)(see Heb 12:2)

Nothing wrong with that.

we see 2 things here both wrong:
A) Heb 6:6 says: re-crucifying Christ puts Him to Open shame - Heb 12:2

Except that isn't what Trent teaches, so the argument is null and void. Furthermore, again, the EOC, OOC, etc, all teach essentially the same thing.

B) there is NO Remission of sins without the Blood (Heb 9:22)

Straw Man.

4. Jesus has long hair and Paul says men like that are a shame (1Cor 11:14)

That's cultural.

5. This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father."

Except that isn't re-anything. It is a mystical connection; a participation in the exact same. Our baptismal theology, or should I say actual Christian baptismal theology, is a participation in Christ's death, burial and descent, and resurrection. The Holy Communion is no different when it comes to the Last Supper and the Sacrifice at Mt. Calvary. It is the same sacrifice, brought present. The very Greek used to describe the whole Liturgy of the Sacrament was commonly used back then to do exactly what I suggest.

In other words, the Greek is proof.

This also has things wrong.

A. Were told of a ONE TIME OFFERING of Christ (heb 10:10)
Heb 10:11 and EVERY Priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING Oftentimes the SAME SACRIFICES which can NEVER take away sins.

Already destroyed this argument.

We are also told NOT to make ANY IMAGE of ANYTHING in Heaven and that includes Jesus hanging dead on a cross....(Ex 20:4) notice were also NOT TO BOW DOWN to these statues (images of any kind)

Bronze serpent on a pole...
Ark of the Covenant...

So much for that argument.

Romans 1:23 and Changed the uncorruptable God into an IMAGE made like to corruptable man - Again were NOT to make images of ANYTHING IN HEAVEN! or on earth or under the sea.

See my immediate above. It is not a Christian argument. It is a non-Christian one.

The mass is not only unbiblical and wrong but completely not needed!

It means people are too good deceiving others with Straw Men and lies.

...now what does Christianity teach about lying...?

Now I know people will come on and defend the mass but I think scripture speaks for itself Very Clearly on the subject!

It teaches most Christians are right. Glad that's agreed upon. The rest of Christianity should adhere to the Holy Writ.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Here are some hymn titles/first lines that illustrate that we worship the risen Lord:

• Christ is Arisen c. 1100 (that would make it pre- reformation BTW)
• Halleiujah! Jesus Lives! 1825
• He is Arisen! Glorious Word! 1778
• I Am Content! My Jesus Liveth Still 1704
• Jesus Christ is Risen Today, Alleluia 1372
• I know that My Redeemer Lives 1775
• Jesus Lives! The Victory's Won 1757
• The Day of Resurrection, St. John of Damascus c. 750

There are many, many more, and these are just a few of the hymns appointed for Easter.


Anglicans, RCs, use most, if not all of these pre and post reformation hymns to proclaim and glorify our risen, ever living most holy and gracious Lord Jesus Christ.


To say that any or all of the Churches I mentioned, plus a whole lot more of them too, do not teach that Christ lives is an out and out lie... which is a sin no mater how legalistic or free one's theology is.


It'd be my guess that there are far fewer hymns in the SDA tradition that proclaim this truth; it permeates not only our Liturgies, but our hymnography as well; "As it was in the beginning is now and forever more; world without end. Amen!"

 

[Gnarwhal]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

Waffer to flesh - they believe the waffer becomes Christ body.....
So they cannibilizes the flesh also forbidden by God

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

2. Jesus has Not risen therefore there is NO salvation in this state.

3. (the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass)(see Heb 12:2)

we see 2 things here both wrong:
A) Heb 6:6 says: re-crucifying Christ puts Him to Open shame - Heb 12:2
B) there is NO Remission of sins without the Blood (Heb 9:22)


4. Jesus has long hair and Paul says men like that are a shame (1Cor 11:14)

5. This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father."

This also has things wrong.

A. Were told of a ONE TIME OFFERING of Christ (heb 10:10)
Heb 10:11 and EVERY Priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING Oftentimes the SAME SACRIFICES which can NEVER take away sins.


We are also told NOT to make ANY IMAGE of ANYTHING in Heaven and that includes Jesus hanging dead on a cross....(Ex 20:4) notice were also NOT TO BOW DOWN to these statues (images of any kind)

Romans 1:23 and Changed the uncorruptable God into an IMAGE made like to corruptable man - Again were NOT to make images of ANYTHING IN HEAVEN! or on earth or under the sea.


The mass is not only unbiblical and wrong but completely not needed!



Now I know people will come on and defend the mass but I think scripture speaks for itself Very Clearly on the subject!

Such a display of ignorance and waste of bandwidth.

 

[Ignatius21]

Wafer only has one "f."

Carry on.

 

[Knee V]

Wafer only has one "f."

Carry on.

Unless you're a french maitre d' in a Monty Python movie: "And finally, a waffer thin mint."

 

[PaladinValer]

Unless you're a french maitre d' in a Monty Python movie: "And finally, a waffer thin mint."

Ah yes, the "Autumn Years" part of Monty Python's Meaning of Life, with Mr. Creosote.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Unless you're a french maitre d' in a Monty Python movie: "And finally, a waffer thin mint."

Ah yes, the "Autumn Years" part of Monty Python's Meaning of Life, with Mr. Creosote.

"better... better get a bucket..."

 

[PaladinValer]

"better... better get a bucket..."

...which is really a relic from Castle Anthrax

 

[Dylan Michael]

Well, there goes my Catholic faith right out the window.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well, there goes my Catholic faith right out the window.

 

[concretecamper]

There are several things to point out about the rcc mass....

Wine to blood - they believe that the wine is turned into the blood of Jesus...
So they drink blood which is forbidden by God - no matter how you slice it.

Waffer to flesh - they believe the waffer becomes Christ body.....
So they cannibilizes the flesh also forbidden by God

Christ on the cross - take your pick
1. Jesus is Kept in constant shame bearing the sins of the world (Heb 12:2)
(also says Jesus is at right hand of Father NOT dead on a cross)

2. Jesus has Not risen therefore there is NO salvation in this state.

3. (the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that "The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner" in the Mass)(see Heb 12:2)

we see 2 things here both wrong:
A) Heb 6:6 says: re-crucifying Christ puts Him to Open shame - Heb 12:2
B) there is NO Remission of sins without the Blood (Heb 9:22)


4. Jesus has long hair and Paul says men like that are a shame (1Cor 11:14)

5. This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, "means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father."

This also has things wrong.

A. Were told of a ONE TIME OFFERING of Christ (heb 10:10)
Heb 10:11 and EVERY Priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING Oftentimes the SAME SACRIFICES which can NEVER take away sins.


We are also told NOT to make ANY IMAGE of ANYTHING in Heaven and that includes Jesus hanging dead on a cross....(Ex 20:4) notice were also NOT TO BOW DOWN to these statues (images of any kind)

Romans 1:23 and Changed the uncorruptable God into an IMAGE made like to corruptable man - Again were NOT to make images of ANYTHING IN HEAVEN! or on earth or under the sea.


The mass is not only unbiblical and wrong but completely not needed!



Now I know people will come on and defend the mass but I think scripture speaks for itself Very Clearly on the subject!

I will not defend the Mass. I will let the apostles defend the Mass. I will let the disciples of the apostles defend the Mass. I will let the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Christians defend the mass. If you have the courage, read Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and the other Church fathers. John the apostle was in the spirit on the Lord's day when he had his vision. Read, do more reading, and then some more. God Bless

 

[Knee V]

I will not defend the Mass. I will let the apostles defend the Mass. I will let the disciples of the apostles defend the Mass. I will let the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Christians defend the mass. If you have the courage, read Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and the other Church fathers. John the apostle was in the spirit on the Lord's day when he had his vision. Read, do more reading, and then some more. God Bless

Yes. Revelation *is* the Mass/Liturgy!