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Mary...?

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Dawn Marie

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I was in a Catholic chat room, and people were saying I'm not Catholic and to "scram"... because I don't think Mary was sinless.

Was Mary a sinner? Or was she not? Where does it say it in the Bible?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just confused...
 

ShannonMcCatholic

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It is a matter of dogma that Catholics must believe in Mary's Immaculate Conception- that she was conceived without Original Sin, or the stain of Original Sin, and remained sinless through out her life. Mary herself upheld this belief particularly in her appearances at Lourdes where she tells Bernadette "I am the Immaculate Conception" and also around the same time in her appearance to St. Catherine Laboure, to whom she revealed the Miraculous Medal which reads "O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee."

It doesn't say in the Bible "Mary had no sin." I can tell you how you can get to this through using the Bible, but you must be willing to look at the Bible through the eyes of typology... If you are looking for a sentence that says this, you will be in much the same position as if you looked for a sentence supporting the exisitence of the Trinity.
 
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Michelina

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Dawn Marie said:
I was in a Catholic chat room, and people were saying I'm not Catholic and to "scram"... because I don't think Mary was sinless. Was Mary a sinner? Or was she not? Where does it say it in the Bible?
Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just confused...

Dawn Marie, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

Mary was sinless. By a unique grace, Mary was conceived without original sin and remained sinless, by God's Grace, til she was assumed (body and soul) into heaven. What the Bible says about Mary is contained in THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH as is what Sacred Tradition (i.e.what the aposles taught) tells us. The Sacred Scriptures don't tell us everything the Apostles taught.
 
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PeterPaul

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Who am I to jump in with two great posts by Shannon and Michelina, two of the great people on this forum and my favorites. :blush:

As for the people who told you to "scram", I feel sorry for them. They truly had no concept of instruction and guidance. Pray for them.
 
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KC Catholic

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Dawn Marie said:
I was in a Catholic chat room, and people were saying I'm not Catholic and to "scram"... because I don't think Mary was sinless.

Was Mary a sinner? Or was she not? Where does it say it in the Bible?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just confused...
This is a common question from both Catholics and Protestants. Yes, we believe as a faith that Mary was born without sin. Where the confusion comes in is when we leave Sacred Tradition out of the discussion with Sacred Scripture. The bible is not the sole source of our beliefs because the Bible did not exist for many, many years after Christ's resurrection, the death of the Apostles, etc. The beliefs and practices of the early Christians was handed down by word of mouth and through letters from the Apostles and their followers.

When the bible was compiled and cannonized the idea was not to create a "How To" manual, it was a collection of God inspired writings that were combined with the Jewish cannon. So there is not a lot in the bible to prove Mary was sinless.

One suggestion would be to read some of the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Don't feel bad or think that you are not "Catholic" because you simply do not understand the belief. We are here to assist.

Btw...welcome to OBOB! :wave:
 
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Toney

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Mary's Immaculate Conception teaches us that Mary was conceived without original sin, as Michelina states.

Proof from Reason yields the Sacred Tradition that Mary did not suffer the stain of sin before Jesus was conceived. In other words, the Blessed Mother could never have been under the power of Satan and birthed Jesus. It is incongruous.

That Mary remained sinless for the duration of her life is not I-C dogma, I do not believe. It is certainly logical that God would grant that grace. Perhaps Michelina can tell us if the church has defined this third part of the question as it has her conception and her life until Gabriel called.
 
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Michelina

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The Catechism # 411

The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross," makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve." Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.(306)

Dawn Marie, You can understand why Mary had to be absolutely free from the contamination of sin at any level in order to bring Jesus into the world. The All-Holy God could not be present in the womb of a sinful woman. So God created Mary in a special way to have a proper Mother for His Son. The fullness of grace she had was such that she never sinned. The Church has always believed this and it was formally affirmed in the declaration of the Immaculate Coception by Pope Pius IX.

Footnote 306: cf. Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus; DS2803.
 
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Dawn Marie

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Thanks guys. :) Okay, this all makes sense... that she had to be without sin to carry Jesus.

I guess the people in the chat room were just a bit rude about it. I did ask some questions in there and nobody answered me.

Someone said "I know your kind... pretending to be Catholic and not knowing anything about it"... it kinda hurt my feelings. How am I supposed to know this stuff. I had no idea where to look...
 
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ShannonMcCatholic

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How am I supposed to know this stuff. I had no idea where to look...

You are always welcome here! And I really recommend getting a Catechism- you can order them at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. A lot of times I have found the answers to my questions in the Catechism!
God Bless!
 
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Michelina

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Dawn Marie said:
Thanks guys. :) Okay, this all makes sense... that she had to be without sin to carry Jesus.

I guess the people in the chat room were just a bit rude about it. I did ask some questions in there and nobody answered me.

Someone said "I know your kind... pretending to be Catholic and not knowing anything about it"... it kinda hurt my feelings. How am I supposed to know this stuff. I had no idea where to look...

Visit OBOB when you have a question or just want to hang out. (We have a Pub! Reilly's Pub.) And there's plenty of great stuff in the threads. Check them out.
 
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ps139

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Dawn Marie said:
Someone said "I know your kind... pretending to be Catholic and not knowing anything about it"... it kinda hurt my feelings. How am I supposed to know this stuff. I had no idea where to look...
It seems likethe people in the chat room haven't heard of the concept of "stumbling blocks." I'm sorry they said those terrible things to you. You were just asking a question.
 
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Axion

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In defence of the people in that chat room; they were probably fed up with trolls coming in and "asking" such questions, not to get information, but in order to convince the Catholics there, they were believing a falsehood.

The question "Where does it say Mary was sinless/ a virgin/Assumed into heaven?" gets asked so many times on Catholic boards, often followed by a long argument from the questioner, bringing up the same old standard anti-catholic rebuttals, that some people on some boards start getting irritated. They shouldn't, since very often the question is being asked genuinely.

So don't be afraid to ask questions here, but remember this is why some Catholics start snapping when they jump to the conclusion that this is another troll attack!
 
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Magisterium

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As for Mary's sinlessness and perpetual virginity which are are hotly debated topics, the bottom line is that these doctrines stand on the authority of the Church.

That said, it must also be noted that the bible itself stands on the authority of the Church as well. We only believe that the books in the New Testament are the infallible word of God (those of us who do) because the Church declared them to be. Many people today, (2000 years after the fact) seem to forget that the New Testament was only respected and recognized as the Word of God because the Church insisted that it was. This idea that the Christian Church grew out of the bible is absurd. In fact, the absurdity of this idea is evident in the splintered nature of those who claim to follow the bible alone.

The fact is, scripture is simply the written record of what the Church was already proclaiming. The Catholic Church proclaimed the Gospel in almost exclusively oral form for almost 400 years before the canon of NT scripture was closed and ratified around 397ad.

Additionally, New Testament scriptures (as they themselves state) are written that one may come to believe in Jesus the Christ. For this reason, much information about others in the life and times of Christ is omitted in favor of focusing completely on the message of our Lord.

However, One must remember that the Church was there! If the Church asserts that Mary was sinless, remained a virgin, and was assumed into heaven (which it does) it is not merely claiming to have discerned this through some type of scriptural telekinesis. The Church is relaying a first hand account passed down through the centuries. For this reason, when some man (or woman) reads the scriptures today and decides that he (or she) will challenge or disbelieve what the Church has maintained since before the scriptures themselves even existed, they excercise poor judgment.

In closing, Catholics should be cautious in being drawn into debates over whether certain matters of Catholic doctrine are scriptural. Though many such doctrines can indeed be explained scripturally, many are matters of revelation and Tradition which like scripture, stand on the authority of the Church.
 
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KC Catholic

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Dawn Marie said:
Thanks guys. :) Okay, this all makes sense... that she had to be without sin to carry Jesus.

I guess the people in the chat room were just a bit rude about it. I did ask some questions in there and nobody answered me.

Someone said "I know your kind... pretending to be Catholic and not knowing anything about it"... it kinda hurt my feelings. How am I supposed to know this stuff. I had no idea where to look...
Well, just pray for them and ask for God's mercy on them. Not everyone is a theologian and its not really required of one to be a theologian to be Catholic. I converted 6 years ago and I am still learning about the Faith. You are welcome here and we are here to answer any question.

Peace be with you.
 
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Raist3001

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The best thing we can offer those who persecute us because we are Catholic is Prayer. I belong to another board which is home to an anti-Catholic who misses no opportunity to bash Catholicism. My first reaction is always anger. Yet when I feel this anger, I turn to God, who in turn washes this anger from me, and leaves my mind clear to respond with love instead of anger. That only serves to incite him further. Yet he is not the only soul that concerns me. For I know others are reading what I post, and it is their souls that concern me as well. One of the most answered attacks is that of Marian Doctrine. And one of the most mis-understood.
 
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Bastoune

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Like the commentaries I read about The Passion by "evangelicals" who say, "Mary was portrayed not as co-redemptrix but in a way conforming to the Gospel accounts" -- as if they even know what Catholics mean by co-redemptrix...:rolleyes: Fools.

You know these so-called Christians by their bitterness and hatred. That is not from God. They do not come from God.
 
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KennySe

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RhetorTheo said:
That is, can you believe Mary was born without Original Sin because nobody has it?

Here is a portion of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
(I have bolded some of it. for emphasis.)
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html

The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."[289] The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."[290]

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".[291] Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.[292]

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".[293] By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.[294] It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,[295] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)[296] and at the Council of Trent (1546).[297]

289 Rom 5:12, 19.
290 Rom 5:18.
291 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1512.
292 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1514.
293 St. Thomas Aquinas, De malo 4, I.
294 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512
295 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.
296 DS 371-372.
297 Cf. DS 1510-1516​
 
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