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Mary's only claim to fame is that she was Jesus's mother.
Nowhere does it say that everyone is equal. I ran across this false conception in another recent thread. Not everyone is equal before God. Some people are greater than others simply because they have been predestined as such -- "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated"; the Master gave one servant ten talents, another five and the third one. Why? The Inscrutable Mind and Will of God. Other people are greater than others because they work with the Graces and roles they are predestined to fulfill -- the servant with one talent would not have been lost if he had invested it instead of burying it in the ground.I stumbled across Mathew 12:50 today, and it seem to make Mary sound, not so special. In fact, Jesus seems to put Mary and his brothers on the same plain as everyone else who follows God. What are your thoughts?
46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Lk. 11:27-28 said:And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.
Lk 1:45 said:And blessed are you that have believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to you by the Lord.
2Cor 5:16 said:Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh. And if we have known Christ according to the flesh; but now we know him so no longer.
The point is that we don't emphasize the physical aspect of Mary or even Jesus. As Christians, it is not terribly important that Jesus was a Jew who lived 2,000 years ago, who taught when He was 30-33 years old, etc (though, of course, it was necessary for Him to be a Jew in the line of King David). It is infinitely important that Jesus is the Son of God. Indeed, it was Jesus' brothers and sisters according to the flesh -- the Jews -- who betrayed Him and crucified Him and were cut off from the olive tree so that Jesus' brothers and sisters according to the spirit who love and accept Him could be grafted on (not that we should glory against them but rather that we should fear being cut off ourselves out of unbelief).That is, we consider not any man with regard to his nation, family, kindred, or other natural qualities or advantages; but only with relation to Christ, and according to the order of divine charity, in God, and for God. The apostle adds, that even with respect to Christ himself, he now no longer considers him according to the flesh, by taking a satisfaction in his being his countryman; his affection being now purified from all such earthly considerations.
Oopsie! You just opened a can of worms here. You should know that Catholics and Orthodox believe that Jesus didn't really have brothers. They believe that they are His cousins, which makes every other believer in Jesus His cousin. What I find very curious is the practice in Catholic and Orthodox churches of referring to people as Brother So-and-So or Sister So-and-So. If, in fact, they are really supposed to be called cousins (per their understanding of the passage in Matthew as well as four other passages in the gospels) then why don't they call them Cousin So-and-So?
Ok, you guys are swaying meI concede that she was the best woman to have ever lived.
So, what do we do in light of this information? I feel that any worship or praise of her or her virtues should instead be channeled towards worshiping God. In fact anything that subtracts from our efforts to serve and worship God needs to be eliminated. Sure, enough all generations call her blessed, and being chosen to birth the God of the universe is quite the blessing, but Mary's purpose was to bring us Jesus, and he is suposed to be the center of all of our attention.
de Montfort said:If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.
ibid said:Dear Jesus, do these people possess your spirit? Do they please you by acting in this way? Would it please you if we were to make no effort to give pleasure to your Mother because we are afraid of offending you? Does devotion to your holy Mother hinder devotion to you? Does Mary keep for herself any honour we pay her? Is she a rival of yours? Is she a stranger having no kinship with you? Does pleasing her imply displeasing you? Does the gift of oneself to her constitute a deprivation for you? Is love for her a lessening of our love for you?
ibid said:Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary's altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.
...
For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.
I call all who know Christ blessed
And you are speaking for Him in saying He could not use St. Mary to draw us closer to Him. You do seem to be limiting God's freedom of action somewhat. Still, if that is what the Spirit tells you ...It is not Mary that draws us to Christ. It is God who draws us.. It is not Mary who points to Christ but the Holy Spirit. There is no mediator between us and Jesus other than God the Spirit.
What?
Two very different things we're talking about -- Jesus' (half) brothers and sisters according to the flesh or our brothers and sisters according to spirit.
I apologize for the confusion. There are two varying thoughts among the Catholics and Orthodox concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. As Thekla has pointed out, many, if not all, Orthodox, believe them to be cousins and not half-brothers and half-sisters whereas many Catholics, if not all, hold that they are half-brothers and half-sisters in the sense that Joseph had a marriage prior to that with Mary during which he fathered these individuals.
So where are the verses that tell us that those in heaven can pray on our behalf?
2Macc 15:12-14 said:Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.
Jas 5:16 said:Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
If I was to pick some people from history to pray for me, Mary would be on the list along with the disciples, prophets and a multitude of other people. If I wanted all of their prayers, do I have to ask them by name or can I ask God to ask them? If I can ask God to ask them, then why don't I skip the middle man, and ask God myself?
Job 42:7-10 said:And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Sophar the Naamathite went, and did as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job. The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends.
I plan to be praying "Your will be done" anyways, so whats the difference? Please explain how that whole thing works.
I apologize for the confusion. There are two varying thoughts among the Catholics and Orthodox concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. As Thekla has pointed out, many, if not all, Orthodox, believe them to be cousins and not half-brothers and half-sisters whereas many Catholics, if not all, hold that they are half-brothers and half-sisters in the sense that Joseph had a marriage prior to that with Mary during which he fathered these individuals.
It is not Mary that draws us to Christ. It is God who draws us.. It is not Mary who points to Christ but the Holy Spirit. There is no mediator between us and Jesus other than God the Spirit.
It is a direct revelation in the scriptures. Here is the scripture that shows it is the Father that draws all men unto Christ. We do not see that it is through Mary one is pointed to Christ..Explain, with references.
Or, as Anglian suggested, is this another one of your "direct revelations" that supersedes Scripture and the Faith?
It is a direct revelation in the scriptures. Here is the scripture that shows it is the Father that draws all men unto Christ. We do not see that it is through Mary one is pointed to Christ..
And you are speaking for Him in saying He could not use St. Mary to draw us closer to Him. You do seem to be limiting God's freedom of action somewhat. Still, if that is what the Spirit tells you ...
peace,
Anglian
You've noticed that too, Anglian? In my opinion, God can act through whatever or whomever He wants to work through, including bread and wine, the saints, their relics--whatever. Why should I limit Him to working through only things that I can understand or am willing to accept? Thank God, my God is much bigger than I am and I am not going to try and fit Him into a little box and tell Him He can only act within my understanding.
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