Mary

[rnmomof7]

Obilio and I were having a discussion on the PRE forum that left me with some questions.

This is not a debate forum , so I am just going to ask my questions and try to get various input. I am having company so that should keep me from "butting in" :>)

I was unaware that EO had basically the same devotion and intercessory prayer practices as the Roman church.

I have known several EO's and attended vespers etc. But no one has every indicated that they use the saints for intercessory prayer. Is that the norm? Does the EO use the rosary and do things like novenas?

I have loved the exceptional art work in the EO churches , but I did not notice kneelers or candles in front of the icons .
I would appreciate some education on this.

Also

Another question came up that I had not really considered.

Obilio mentioned that the EO does not see the need for sin to need a Savior (Am I saying that right?)

I would like to hear some on that too, as it does not make sense to this protestant mind.

Thanks so much in advance for some discussion

 

[Oblio]

Thank you for stopping by

Hopefully some of my brethren will answer better than I can and fill in my blanks, but I'll start off.

I have known several EO's and attended vespers etc. But no one has every indicated that they use the saints for intercessory prayer. Is that the norm? Does the EO use the rosary and do things like novenas?

Some use a chotki, or prayer rope, to say the Jesus Prayer. While not unknown, it is rare for an EO to pray the Rosary.

I have loved the exceptional art work in the EO churches , but I did not notice kneelers or candles in front of the icons .
I would appreciate some education on this.

Generally, we do not kneel though there are some special services where we do (Pentecost being the most memorable, and since we do not have kneelers, painful ) What we do do, usually penitentially, is prostrate. This is NOT like the RC prostration, but rather like the Muslims. This may seem shocking at first but it is because they hijacked it, like many other EO pious customs and traditions, from Christians.

If you have visited Greek churches, you will find that their candles are placed in the Narthex, what you would call a Vestibule or entrance, rather than in front of the Icons. The Russian (and therefore most OCA churches) tradition places candles in stands in front of the Icons.

Another question came up that I had not really considered.

Obilio mentioned that the EO does not see the need for sin to need a Savior (Am I saying that right?)

I would like to hear some on that too, as it does not make sense to this protestant mind.

Thanks so much in advance for some discussion

What I was trying to point out was that even we could live a sinless life, we would still need a Saviour. Orthodox see the fall as an infection that permeates all Creation (including man) therefore no matter what we do or how perfect we live, we are separated from God, the very source of Life, and we die. Living a sinless life will not fix this. I did not mean to imply that one who sins does not need a Saviour (if that was your confusion)

 

[Photini]

If you have visited Greek churches, you will find that their candles are placed in the Narthex, what you would call a Vestibule or entrance, rather than in front of the Icons. The Russian (and therefore most OCA churches) tradition places candles in stands in front of the Icons.

There will usually be oil lamps burning before the Icons on the iconostasis, and maybe a few others as well.

 

[Photini]

Obilio mentioned that the EO does not see the need for sin to need a Savior (Am I saying that right?)

I would like to hear some on that too, as it does not make sense to this protestant mind.

Thanks so much in advance for some discussion

Welcome to TAW!

This question actually reminded me of a thread I started a couple of months ago... God's Love and the Incarnation. I was quite taken aback to say the least, but realized that God's plan for His creation was the same before and after the Fall.

 

[Moros]

I have known several EO's and attended vespers etc. But no one has every indicated that they use the saints for intercessory prayer. Is that the norm? Does the EO use the rosary and do things like novenas?

1. Yes, Orthodox pray to saints for intercession, usually ending in "St. ___ pray to God for us!"

2. EO do not use the rosary, we use a prayer rope, which is basically the same thing, except we only say the "Jesus Prayer" on it as opposed to a bunch of different prayers. Jesus prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

I have loved the exceptional art work in the EO churches , but I did not notice kneelers or candles in front of the icons .

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/LGOT/standing.shtml
In order to express to God our reverence before Him and our worship of Him, during prayer we stand, and do not sit; only the sick and elderly are allowed to pray sitting down. Standing while at prayer is an ancient and God-ordained tradition. In Old Testament times, the congregation of Israel stood in the Temple (Neh. 9:4,5; 8:7, 2 Chron. 20:5,13), the Saints stand in Heaven before the Throne of God (Is. 6:2, 1 Kings 22:19, Dan. 7:10, Rev. 7:11), and even Jesus Christ Himself said, "When ye stand praying" (Mark 9:25). Therefore Christians, according to apostolic teaching, stand through the Divine Services, where it is often proclaimed: "Let us stand aright."

In recognizing our sinfulness and unworthiness before God, and as a sign of our humility, we make bows during our prayers. There are bows from the waist, when we bow from the waist, and to the ground, when we bow down on our knees and touch our head to the ground (a prostration).

Obilio mentioned that the EO does not see the need for sin to need a Savior (Am I saying that right?)

I haven't heard this one.

 

[Daedalus]

Well
I'm a romanian orthodox, and people use saints as intercessory prayer.
Most of them pray to the Virgin Mary, as we regard her as the most saint of all the saints and apostles.
Orthodox faith does not teach that you should have any object when praying (prayer rope, nore that you must wear a cross at your neck -- though that is common practice).
All the objects used must be a simbol of faith, not a replacer for faith.

There's good reason for lack of candles (it's not like there is no candle) in the church :
most romanina churches are'nt that big and the church can get filled with candle smoke, making many sick
the smoke damages the painting
the candles oftenly lead to accidents such as fires and so on

So it's good practice to keep the candles outside, and to pray insde the church.

Also, you might notice (or at least in romanian churches) that we don't have many seats in the church -- only the sick and old should use them -- after all, you shouldn't come to the church to sleep into it.

In the romanian orthodox church I remember we do, kneel (I can't really say for how long, it all depends on the day and service).

 

[Nickolai]

I have known several EO's and attended vespers etc. But no one has every indicated that they use the saints for intercessory prayer. Is that the norm? Does the EO use the rosary and do things like novenas?

We use a prayer rope called a Chotki in russian. We use it to say the Jesus Prayer "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me, a sinner". I believe some of the reason we use the rope is that it gets our Body into the prayer rather than just our mind and speech. Some other reasons of course but that's what makes sense to me. Orthodox are all about worship and we are very sensory in that worship.

I have loved the exceptional art work in the EO churches , but I did not notice kneelers or candles in front of the icons .
I would appreciate some education on this.

As Oblio stated, we don't kneel very often. Prostrations are great. I like them because they humble me to a degree, and they involve more of by body into Worship. We don't get to do them now until Pentacost

Obilio mentioned that the EO does not see the need for sin to need a Savior (Am I saying that right?)

I wil answer this question two ways. I don't really understand what your asking so it's reading two different ways so I'll answer both of the ones I see.

1. "Does EO state that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned that the savior would still come?"

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't wanna give this person the wrong info)

I've seen this written by some of the Fathers. I think it realates to the fact that Orthodox do not say that we were perfect in Eden, but that we were on the path to perfection. this meaning we still needed someone to make us perfect.Being sinnless in and of itslef would not mean we were perfect.

This brings me to the other question.

2. "Does EO state that even a sinless person still needs a savior?"

Simple answer, Yes.

We know that Jesus was not the only sinless person in the World. Job from the old covanant was sinless, and so was Mary the Ever-virgin Theotokos. Being sinless in and of itself does not save Humanity from the clutches of death. We needed someone to defeat death. Someone that was a new creation, not currupted by the consequences of sin. (We do not recognise that Adams guilt of sin was passed on to us) In other words, we needed a new Adam. Enter Christ. Not only was he sinless (He was in a world of sin, therefore could have sinned but he did not) but his humanity was a pre-fall humanity. Therefore not subject to death. He tolk on death willfully not because death tolk Him. When Christ toke on flesh in Mary's womb He was a new creation So that when He defeated death on the cross he would allow humanity to partake of that new creation. Both in the Eucharist and in being members of His Body.

 

[Oblio]

An important difference between the RC Rosary and the Jesus Prayer is that the later is NOT meditative. IOW we do not meditate or contemplate the various Mysteries of Christ, nor do we use imagery to assist us in this prayer. For further resources on this see On The Jesus Prayer

A very good primer on Orthodox soteriology is found online in
On the Incarnation of The Word, written by the same apologist that Theologically slew Arius 1500 years ago. A relatively quick read that might answer some of your questions.

 

[Markh]

1. "Does EO state that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned that the savior would still come?"

Irrelevant though it is, as a Catholic I have been taught (and it is now in the catechism) that Christ was presestined from the begining, before the fall to come to earth and dwell with his people.

btw, just to ask a question, is there any reason why Orthodox do not say the rosary?

 

[Oblio]

My guesses are that a) it is a Latin rite* and b) we have the Jesus Prayer. There may be other theologcal reasons, but I am not aware of them.

* - I do not mean offense by this or that it is somehow inferior, but there is a long history of separation and tension between our confessions, it is human nature to shun that which is embraced by one of a different faith or that one has disagreements with.

 

[Moros]

btw, just to ask a question, is there any reason why Orthodox do not say the rosary?

A lot of the Rosary prayers are not relevant to Orthodoxy. I would assume Orthodox saying the Rosary is not heretical or blasphemous in it's own right, (since a lot of Orthodox fathers I know send their children to R.C. Schools) Orthodox simply do not say the rosary and it's prayers because the rosary is a Roman Catholic thing, and it's not part of our tradition nor practice.

 

[brewmama]

Not all Orthodox are unfamiliar with the rosary. St. Seraphim recommended it...

With all the interest in the life of St Seraphim last year and this, a number of his prayer rules have been published, his own very strict cell-rule for praying the psalms and his unique prayer rule for laity.

St Seraphim prescribed the recitation of three Our Father’s and Hail Mary’s (the Orthodox version begins “Rejoice, O Theotokos-Virgin . . .”) together with the Nicene Creed once, morning and night. He said that anyone, no matter how busy they are, can do this and, if they remain faithful to it, will be led into a greater prayer life by the Holy Spirit in time!

Among his other prayer rules is to be found the “Rule of the Mother of God” which consists in reciting 150 “Hail Mary’s” divided up into groups of ten. Each group is followed by the prayer “Open to us the doors of Thy Mercy . . .” (which he insisted was most important to include!) and with a special prayer for a particular intention. (I’ve translated the full text into English and it is on this site: http://www.montfortmissionaries.com/thoughts.phtml It is the letter under “Sept. 24,” the third down from the top.

St Seraphim also kept a book in which he listed all sorts of miraculous healings of people who prayed this rule faithfully every day.

 

[brewmama]

Also this:

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary

 

[Oblio]

I stand corrected, thanks brewmama

 

[Reader Nilus]

Here is an example of the veneration of the saints, this is addressed to St Nilus of Sora my Patron Saint.

O venerable father Nilus, blessed of God, our divinely wise instructor and teacher! Having withdrawn fmm the turmoil of the world for the sake of God’s love, thou didst choose to make thine abode in the trackless wilderness and impenetrable forests. And having increased the children of the wilderness like a right fruitful branch, thou didst show thyself to them as an image of every monastic virtue by word, writing and manner of life. And having lived on earth like an angel in the flesh, thou now dwellest in the mansions of heaven, where the cry of those who keep festival is unceasing, and, standing with the choirs of saints before God, thou dost continually offer up praises and glorification unto Him. We beseech thee, O thou who art blessed of God: Instruct us also who live under thy protection, that we may follow in thy steps without wavering; that we may love the Lord God with all our heart, please Him alone and think of Him alone, manfully and skillfully trampling underfoot those thoughts which drag us down, and may ever vanquish the assaults of the enemy; that we may love all the restraints of the monastic life, and come to hate the beautiful things of this world out of love for Christ, and plant in our hearts every virtue wherein thou didst labor. Entreat Christ God, that He illumine the minds and hearts of all Orthodox Christians who dwell in the world, that they may see salvation, that He establish them in faith and piety, and in the doing of His commandments, protect them from the deception of this world, and grant unto them and to us remission of sins, and bestow upon them, according to His true promise, all things they need for this transitory life. Yea, let those who abide in the wilderness and in the world live a life of inner stillness, in all piety and honor, and glorify Him with mouth and heart, together with His unoriginate Father and His all holy, good and life-creating Spirit, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
_______________________________________________
Jeff the Finn

 

[Nikolas222]

Im trying to get a Koposkini, or monk's prayer rope. Those are cool.

 

[Michael G]

2. EO do not use the rosary, we use a prayer rope, which is basically the same thing, except we only say the "Jesus Prayer" on it as opposed to a bunch of different prayers. Jesus prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Not to be contradictory, but the idea behind the Jesus Prayer on the Prayer Rope and the Rosary are 2 different things. The Rosary is a whole series of prayers which are designed to meditate on the Theotokus (Mary) while the idea of praying the Jesus Prayer on the Prayer Rope is to pray the prayer incessantly so as to form a constant prayer of the heart. This is called hesychism. The Prayer Rope is merely there to keep your mind focused on the praying.

 

[Michael G]

I have loved the exceptional art work in the EO churches , but I did not notice kneelers or candles in front of the icons .

We reverence Icons by prostrating or making a deep bow from the waist in front of them, and then kissing them. In Russian and OCA Churches we also light candles in front of the icons, although in Greek and Antiochian Churches the candles are in the Narthex.

 

[rnmomof7]

There will usually be oil lamps burning before the Icons on the iconostasis, and maybe a few others as well.

Yes now that you mention that I do remember that , as well as the candles in the hall.

I think scripture indicates that candles indicate the presence of God ..( like the light in the Temple, would that be a similar meaning?

 

[Oblio]

Yes now that you mention that I do remember that , as well as the candles in the hall.

I think scripture indicates that candles indicate the presence of God ..( like the light in the Temple, would that be a similar meaning?

The flame symbolizes Christ, the Light of the world.

Joh 1:4-9 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. (9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.