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Mary co-equal with God?

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nyj

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If you’re a Catholic and you’ve spent time on the internet discussing religion, chances are you’ve heard people rail against the Catholic Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Chances are also good that some people have not had very nice things to say about this subject and some may have gone on to lay down further accusations against the Catholic Church because of this issue. To see people attack the Catholic Church because of the devotion to Mary is not an uncommon sight. Sometimes it can get downright ugly though.

Take the following comments for example:

Mary IS more than honored in this (the Catholic) church. I think it has been subtlely instilled in Roman teachings over the centuries. It has been worked into the RCC liturgy in such a "reverent" way that most faithful RCs have missed the true evil Mary worship represents.

Mary worship? Yep, you better believe it, this is the charge that is leveled against the Catholic Church. However, let us look at at least one mistruth in that statement.

It has been worked into the RCC liturgy…

If you are a church-going Catholic, you know this to be untrue. Going over the Catholic missal for the Latin Rite, one can see that Mary is mentioned only twice.

The Mass is broken into two parts, the first being the Liturgy of the Word and then the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The mentioning of Mary is contained to the Liturgy of the Word, first when the congregation recites the penitential rite (...and I ask Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin, and all the angels and saints, and to you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God...) and then the Nicene Creed (... born of the Virgin Mary...) At no other point is Mary mentioned in what is the pinnacle of Catholic worship.

But, it gets better….

It looks to me as a replacement of Jesus and inserting Mary in His place.

And…

According to Catholics, Mary and God are two interchangeable words.

And…

Catholics put Mary on equal status as the Trinity.

Is this true? Do Catholics put Mary on equal footing with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Some who attack the Catholic Church go so far as to say that the Catholic Church replaces Jesus or the Holy Spirit with Mary to make a new Trinity.

Well, if this is true, it should be easy enough to find evidence of this right? Wrong. Let us look at a real life situation to see how the Catholic Church responded to such an instance.

In 1975, in Quebec, a Catholic apostolate that went by the name of “The Army of Mary” was given official Church approval as a “Pious Association”, after being founded in 1971 by Marie-Paule Giguere. The Army has stated that it has been receiving Marian apparitions for over 40 years.

Unfortunately, the Army of Mary began reporting on private revelations which were rather troubling. They reported that the ‘Immaculate’ (Mary) is co-eternal with the Triune God, and that although she was once the historical mother of Jesus, she is now ‘reincarnated’ and ‘dwells’ in the very person of the recipient of these presumed private revelations (i.e.: Marie-Paule Giguere herself).

These claims present two problems, the first one that should be self-evident is that for the Catholic faithful, reincarnation is an impossibility, it does not happen. This is blatantly not Catholic teaching and should be immediately disregarded. However, the more subtle error (depending on how theologically savvy you are) is the claim of co-eternal-ness.

In the Creed of St. Athanasius, a doctor of the Church, co-eternal-ness is relegated to the Trinity and the Trinity alone.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate: and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals: but one eternal.

What we see here is that the Army of Mary has raised Mary to equal footing with the Trinity.

This is exactly the claim that those who attack the Catholic Church level against the Church.

So, if these claims are true, that the Catholic Church is looking for a way to raise Mary to the level of God, one would assume that the Vatican would jump at the chance of using these private revelations to establish new doctrine, no?

Well, guess again. On May 4 of 1987, after numerous attempts to get the Army of Mary to drop these allegations of re-incarnation and co-eternal-ness, the Bishops of Canada, with approval of the Vatican, revoked the “Pious Association” standing of the Army of Mary and warned the Catholic faithful that this organization did not represent Catholic teaching and could not be trusted. In a follow-up letter 14 years later, the Catholic Bishops of Canada had this to say once again…

The Army of Mary's on-going activities and teachings pose dangers for the Catholic Church in Canada and to the faith of its members. In view of this and the continuing threat to the integrity and unity of the Catholic faith, the Bishops of Canada declare, and hereby inform all the Catholic faithful, that the Army of Mary, regardless of its claims to the contrary, is not a Catholic association.

The full re-statement can be found at the following link: http://www.cccb.ca/docs/armyofmary.htm

Interestingly enough, the Catholic Church has acted in just the opposite way of which those who attack the Catholic Church would have others believe. Instead of embracing the revelations put forth by the Army of Mary, and using it as a chance to place Mary on equal footing with Jesus, the Catholic Church condemned it, and continues to condemn it.

Now, those who attack the Catholic Church can offer rebuttals and conspiracy theories as to why the Catholic Church did not accept these revelations, at this place and time, but this does nothing to address the fact that the Catholic Church expressly denies any of the claims that these very people are making, right here, right now.

As Jesus Himself said, ”Thus you will know them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:20 RSV), and we can see that the fruits born by the Catholic Church are to deny, refute and correct any claims that Mary is equal with God.
 

Kotton

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Originally posted by nyj
Interestingly enough, the Catholic Church has acted in just the opposite way of which those who attack the Catholic Church would have others believe. Instead of embracing the revelations put forth by the Army of Mary, and using it as a chance to place Mary on equal footing with Jesus, the Catholic Church condemned it, and continues to condemn it. 

So we see those who opose the Church picking up on the original statements from such a group, but ignoring the condemnation by the Church. Many of the statements used in showing what the Catholic Church is doing or teaching are from  these groups who take a point beyond Church doctrine. The enemy always rejoices that some Catholic in idolatry or blasphamy is held as 'the Catholic Church'. :(

Pray for those misled.   :pray:   
 
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Miss Shelby

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The enemy always rejoices that some Catholic in idolatry or blasphamy is held as 'the Catholic Church'.

I have seen this joy that you speak of, Kotton. I have actually seen some who take gleeful delight in their deluded perceptions that Catholics are hellbound. Sad indeed. :(

I hope your efforts have not been  in vain NYJ.. it would be nice if some would take an honest look at what you've said.

Michelle
 
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linda4jesus

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Hi Guys,

Hope you don't mind me posting here, but I wanted to ask a question and make a comment.

I was watching EWTN this morning.....There was a great story about Noah for kids and I was enjoying it. I went to fold clothes and when I returned the piece I was watching had finished...

There was a different show on. It appeared to be a family (mother, father, 6 or 7 kids ranging in age from baby to 15 years old) walking down the asile of a church....one at a time....carrying flowers. They were singing and placing the flowers at the foot of a statue of Mary. The last two to walk in were a boy and girl; the girl was carrying a pillow with a crown on it; the boy had a pillow....but I didn't see what he was carrying. The girl came to the statue and placed the crown on the head of the statue. After the young girl (13 or so) placed the crown on the statues head, they circled around Mary and sang. Also when the family were walking down the asile, there were men in 'knight' like clothes with swords raised over their heads. Maybe someone saw this?

Any way my question is what were they doing?
 
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marciadietrich

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Originally posted by linda4jesus
They were singing and placing the flowers at the foot of a statue of Mary. The last two to walk in were a boy and girl; the girl was carrying a pillow with a crown on it; the boy had a pillow....but I didn't see what he was carrying. The girl came to the statue and placed the crown on the head of the statue. After the young girl (13 or so) placed the crown on the statues head, they circled around Mary and sang. Also when the family were walking down the asile, there were men in 'knight' like clothes with swords raised over their heads. Maybe someone saw this?

Any way my question is what were they doing?

Hello Linda,

I haven't yet seen this personally but I believe it is a crowning of Mary type ceremony. Catholics among other things give Mary the title of "Queen of Heaven" which is based on Jesus being the King of Kings and the OT queen mother set up in the David lineage, starting with Bathsheba being the "queen" while Solomon ruled. (1 Kings 2:19 -where Solomon has her seated at his right hand for example.)   It also has to do with Mary as a type of the church, that we will as member of the body/bride of Christ will be glorfied in heaven.  In revelation it has saints laying down their crowns at the throne (Rev 4:5-11) and they see the woman in Rev 12 in part represents Mary as the ark of the covenent (read also end of Rev 11 which has the ark ... the chapter breaks are additions to make reference easier and weren't included in scripture until the 1200's or so). 

Marcia
 
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linda4jesus

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Originally posted by chelcb
Linda,

I know exactly what kids show you are referring to. It comes on every Sat. morning. They were signing a song to the blessed virgin if you were listening to the song you would have had your answer.


I couldn't understand what they were singing.

As for the kids show, it was really good!

Thanks!
 
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chelcb

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Originally posted by linda4jesus
I couldn't understand what they were singing.

As for the kids show, it was really good!

Thanks!

 

Did you get to see the little computer animated angel, Cherub? He is precious.

The Mary prosession and the flowers is how we show our Heavenly Mother love and honor. Just like someone would show love and honor to their earthly Mother.

The show that you seen is a consecration to her Immaculate heart. That's what the knights were about and the flowers and the song. It was a devotional, this is why it's on every sat. morning for the kids to see that they too can be consecrated to their Mother.

It is not a must do in order to be a Catholic in good standing but it is certainly encouraged to help us grow closer to Jesus because Mary always points to him and can only lead one to a closer union with him.
 
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nodrog

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So we see those who opose the Church picking up on the original statements from such a group, but ignoring the condemnation by the Church. Many of the statements used in showing what the Catholic Church is doing or teaching are from these groups who take a point beyond Church doctrine. The enemy always rejoices that some Catholic in idolatry or blasphamy is held as 'the Catholic Church'.

Caused me to think.  It is easy for me to focus on those Catholics that do practice Marian idolatry and forget that it is a minority.  It does seem more prevailent in some areas of the world.   It is very troubling that some of the New Age cults have claimed Mary as an icon.  That should make all of us angry.
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by nodrog
Caused me to think.  It is easy for me to focus on those Catholics that do practice Marian idolatry and forget that it is a minority.  It does seem more prevailent in some areas of the world.   It is very troubling that some of the New Age cults have claimed Mary as an icon.  That should make all of us angry.

Good point.  Mary is THE focal point of Santeria, a voodoo religion that evolved out of Catholicism.  She is worshipped as a goddess. Santeria means, in Spanish, the way of the saints. 
 
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Stormy

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Originally posted by linda4jesus
Hi Guys,

Hope you don't mind me posting here, but I wanted to ask a question and make a comment.

I was watching EWTN this morning.....There was a great story about Noah for kids and I was enjoying it. I went to fold clothes and when I returned the piece I was watching had finished...

There was a different show on. It appeared to be a family (mother, father, 6 or 7 kids ranging in age from baby to 15 years old) walking down the asile of a church....one at a time....carrying flowers. They were singing and placing the flowers at the foot of a statue of Mary. The last two to walk in were a boy and girl; the girl was carrying a pillow with a crown on it; the boy had a pillow....but I didn't see what he was carrying. The girl came to the statue and placed the crown on the head of the statue. After the young girl (13 or so) placed the crown on the statues head, they circled around Mary and sang. Also when the family were walking down the asile, there were men in 'knight' like clothes with swords raised over their heads. Maybe someone saw this?

Any way my question is what were they doing?

I don't know. It gives me the creeps. It would be one thing to be honoring Mary if she were in our presence.

But hey! This is a statue! Children carrying flowers and a crown to a statue?

Crowning a Statue? How is this NOT worshiping a graven image?

Maybe some of these practices is what causes all the accusations.

IMO Things like this should not be a part of a Christian Church.

People should not worship statues... rather it be Mary or Jesus. But Mary is never to be given any form of worship.

Devotion is worship.

Maybe it is not a worship that all members must do in order to maintain their membership... but it is worship.

Devotion 1 a : religious fervor : PIETY b : an act of prayer or private worship -- usually used in plural c : a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation.

If I have crossed the line on what is allowed on this forum... it is ok for a mod to delete my post.

Wow... You blew me away with this Linda. :sigh:
 
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