Mary and Joseph

Uphill Battle said:

and can I be part of the Orthodox church if I DON't believe it? (or, at the very least, hold a reverent agnosticism towards it, holding no strong position on the matter.)

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I guess my question there would be... Why would you want to be membered among a group that you disagree with?

Forgive me...

It would appear that I am incorrect...

It has been dogmatically stated.

.....We also speak of the Theotokos as being Ever-Virgin, which was officially proclaimed at the 5th Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 553; the dogma concerning Mary as being Theotokos was proclaimed in 431 at the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Ephesus). .....

Forgive me...

The Mother of GodThe Most-Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary.
In the theology and piety of the Orthodox Church, a special place of honor is given to the Mother of God the Most-Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, who is reverenced by the Orthodox as being more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious, beyond compare, than the Seraphim. As Orthodox we style her as the most exalted among God's creatures; but we do not regard her as some sort of goddess, the 4th Person of the Trinity, as some accuse us; nor do we render her the worship due God alone. Just as with the Holy Icons, the veneration due Mary is expressed in quite different words in the Greek writings of the Fathers than that due God.
At many of the Divine Services, the Deacon exclaims: Commemorating our Most-Holy, Most-Pure, Most-Blessed and Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary with all the Saints.... And here we can see three basic truths expressed concerning her.
The Virgin Mary is honored because she is Theotokos the Mother of God not of His divinity, but of His humanity, yet of God in that Jesus Christ was, in the theology of the Church, both God and Man, at one and the same time, in the Incarnation. Therefore, the honor given Mary is due to her relationship to Christ. And this honor, rather than taking away from that due God, makes us more aware of God's majesty; for it is precisely on account of the Son (Himself God) that she is venerated. Of times, when men refuse to honor Mary, it is because they do not believe in the cause of her veneration the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity.
We also speak of the Theotokos as being Ever-Virgin, which was officially proclaimed at the 5th Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 553; the dogma concerning Mary as being Theotokos was proclaimed in 431 at the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Ephesus). This notion does not actually contradict Holy Scripture, as some would think. And His mother and His brothers came; and standing outside they sent to Him and called Him (Mark 3:31). Here the use of the word brothers in the original Greek can mean half-brother, cousin, or near relative, in addition to brothers in the strict sense. The Orthodox Church has always seen brothers here as referring to His half-brothers.
If Mary is honored as Theotokos, so too, she is honored because she is Panagia All-Holy. She is the supreme example of the cooperation between God and Man; for God, Who always respects human freedom, did not become incarnate without her free consent which, as Holy Scripture tells us, was freely given: Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word (Luke 1:38). Thus Mary is seen by the Church as the New Eve (as Christ is the New Adam) whose perfect obedience contrasted the disobedience of the First Mother, Eve, in Paradise. As St. Irenaeus says, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a virgin, bound by her unbelief, that Mary, a virgin, unloosed by her faith [Against the Heresies, III, xxii, 4],
As All-Holy and Most-Pure, Mary was free from actual sin, but, in the opinion of most Orthodox theologians, although not dogmatized by the Church, she did fall under the curse of Original Sin as does all mankind. For this reason by virtue of her solidarity with all humanity the Theotokos died a bodily death. Yet, in her case, the resurrection of the body had been anticipated; and she was assumed body and soul into Heaven; and her tomb was found empty an event celebrated in the Feast of the Falling-Asleep (or Dormition) of the Most-Holy Theotokos (Aug. 15). Thus, as the hymns of that Feast proclaim, she has passed from earth to heaven, beyond death and judgment, living already in the age to come. She enjoys now the same bodily glory all of us hope to share one day.
Whereas the Church has officially proclaimed as dogmas the doctrines concerning the Trinity and the Incarnation, the glorification of the Mother of God belongs to the Inner Tradition of the Church. As the noted Orthodox theologian, Vladimir Lossky writes: It is hard to speak and not less hard to think about the mysteries which the Church keeps in the hidden depths of her inner consciousness.... The Mother of God was never a theme of the public preaching of the Apostles; while Christ was preached on the housetops, and proclaimed for all to know in an initiatory teaching addressed to the whole world, the mystery of His Mother was revealed only to those who were within the Church.... It is not so much an object of faith as a foundation of our hope, a fruit of faith, ripened in Tradition. Let us therefore keep silence, and let us not try to dogmatize about the supreme glory of the Mother of God [Panagia, in The Mother of God, ed. E.L. Mascall, p.35].
Appellations of the Theotokos.

Ark.

The Theotokos is often called an Ark, for the Glory of God settled on her, just as the Glory of God descended on the Mercy Seat of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant (Ex. 25:10-22).
Aaron's Rod.

Just as Aaron's Rod sprouted miraculously in the Old Testament, so too, the Theotokos has budded forth the Flower of Immortality, Christ our God (Num. 17:1-11).
Burning Bush.

On Mt. Sinai, Moses saw the Bush that was burning, but was not consumed. So too, the Theotokos bore the fire of Divinity, but was not consumed (Ex. 3:1-6).
(Golden) Candlestick.

In the Old Testament Tabernacle, there were found in the Sanctuary golden candlesticks. The Theotokos is the Candlestick which held that Light that illumines the world (Ex. 25:31-40).
(Golden) Censer.

Just as the censer holds a burning coal, so too, the Theotokos held the Living Coal. In the Apocalypse, there stands an Angel before the Throne of God, swinging a censer, representing the prayers of the Saints rising up to God. This is also seen as a symbol of the Theotokos, for it is her prayers that find special favor before her Son.
Cloud.

In the Exodus, the Israelites were led out of Egypt by a Cloud of Light, symbolizing the presence of God in their midst. So too, the Theotokos is a Cloud, bearing God within.
Fleece.

In the book of Judges we read the account of the dew which appeared miraculously on Gideon's fleece (Judges 6:36-40). So too, the Dew Christ, appeared miraculously on the Living Fleece the Theotokos.
Holy of Holies.

Into the Holy of Holies only the High Priest could enter. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy of Holies into which only the Eternal High Priest Christ entered (Heb. 9:1-7).
Ladder.

In a dream Jacob saw a ladder ascending to Heaven, with Angels ascending and descending on it. The Theotokos is a Ladder, stretching from earth to Heaven, for on It God descended to man, having become incarnate.
Mountain (from which a Stone was cut not by hand of man).

The Prophet Daniel saw a mountain, from which was cut a stone, not by the hand of man (Dan. 2:34, 45). This is a reference to the miraculous Virgin Birth which was accomplished without the hand of man.
Palace.

The Theotokos was the Palace within which the King Christ our God dwelt.
Pot.

[See Urn]
Stem of Jesse.

In the Nativity Service, the Lord is referred to as the Rod from the Stem of Jesse (Is. 11:1), indicating His lineage from David, which was fulfilled through the Theotokos, who was a scion (or stem) of the line of David, the son of Jesse.
Tabernacle.

The Tabernacle was the place where the Glory of God dwelt. So too, the Glory of God dwelt in the Theotokos the Living Tabernacle (Ex. 40:34).
(Holy) Table.

This refers to the Holy Table (Altar Table) on which, at the Divine Liturgy, the Divine Food is offered. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy Table which bore the Bread of Life.
Temple.

The Prophet Ezekiel speaks of the Temple whose East gate remains sealed, through which only the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered. This clearly prophesies the Virgin Birth of the Theotokos (Ez. 44:1-2).
Throne.

The Theotokos is the Throne upon which Christ, the King of All, rested.
(Golden) Urn.

In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant contained within itself a golden urn filled with the heavenly manna. The Theotokos is the Urn which contained Christ, the Divine Manna (Heb. 9:1-7).
Vine.

The Theotokos is the Vine which bore the Ripe Cluster (of Grapes), Christ our Lord.

Excerpt taken from "These Truths We Hold - The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teachings". Compiled and Edited by A Monk of St. Tikhon's Monastery. Copyright 1986 by the St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, South Canaan, Pennsylvania 18459.
To order a copy of "These Truths We Hold" visit the St. Tikhon's Orthodox Seminary Bookstore.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

I guess my question there would be... Why would you want to be membered among a group that you disagree with?

Forgive me...

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well, I'm not sure I would. Curiosity, mostly.

but I daresay it would be impossible for ME to ever conceive of accepting such dogmas, outside of the particular church. I would have to subject myself to the teachings, and see what the HS said about it to me.

Don't really know of any other way.

PookySmiley said:

If people choose to believe something that is in direct contradiction to scripture, that's very sad. Scripture says they married, scripture says Jesus had siblings. What your church's leaders have to say about it is clearly wrong.

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In your opinion.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Does the RCC claim to be 100% error free in all things concerning Christianity?

Oh wait, yeah I guess they do... it's called infallability.

We have no such doctrine. We accept that we are fallable humans, and rely on Christ's grace to keep us constantly corrected.

Forgive me...

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Wait hold up... are you saying your bishops are all fallible when it comes to passing on the faith of the early fathers?

That's news to me...

I think what you mean to say is, you do not develop doctrine becuase you wish not to make mistakes, so you leave them alone, because of your fallibility, rather than you actually teach mistakes.

I have never heard an Orthodox claim the Orthodox Church is subject to error.

Uphill Battle said:

sigh... you are deliberately missing what I am saying.

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No I'm not missing it.

you think ancient Christianity is religion and not a relationship with Christ and you are creating a false dichotomy.

Uphill Battle said:

so the Orthodox church concedes that something that they are teaching MAY be error? this is the first I've heard of that.

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Exactly.

He's just pandering to your bias against anything Catholic.

Benedicta00 said:

No I'm not missing it.

you think ancient Christianity is religion and not a relationship with Christ and you are creating a false dichotomy.

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no, I am not.

I am stating that in relation to Christ, Ancient Christians are irrelevant. Holding an ancient Christian in high esteem will do nothing for my relationship with Christ.

Benedicta00 said:

Exactly.

He's just pandering to your bias against anything Catholic.

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I've never seen OUSA pander to anyone.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Could be... but then, we do our absolute best not to be.

We have disagreements amongst ourselves as well.

As I said, Infallability is not a doctrine of The Orthodox Church.

Forgive me...

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Then what doctrine might you be wrong about? The Eucharist? Mary's PV? The dual natures of Christ?

Tell me what separates you from the Protestants if you think no one has the whole truth and nothing but?

OrthodoxyUSA said:

In fact, the only thing dogmatically stated about Mary in The Orthodox Church is the fact that she is Theotokos.

Everything else is pious belief not dogma.

Now, I could be wrong and another Orthodox Christian may wish to correct me... but Mary's ever-virginity has not been dogmatically stated by The Orthodox Church. However, I don't know of an Orthodox Christian that denies it either.

Forgive me...

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what i want to know is, on who's authority do you make a dogma in the EO Church if you are subject to being wrong?

Are you telling me you obligate the EO laity to believe doctrines that you are not a 100% sure is even correct?

Or is what you're saying, outside of dogma the EO may be wrong about everything?

But if you are subject to error, where do you get the authority from to make a dogma? Oh yeah, all those EO dogmas were made while you were in union with Rome...

USA, I'm not trying to pick on you even though I know how you feel about Catholics and the Catholic faith. I'm just asking you to be careful that in your zeal to bring others to Orthodoxy, you don't go over board in your pandering to their Catholic bias.

Benedicta00 said:

what i want to know is, on who's authority do you make a dogma in the EO Church if you are subject to being wrong?

Are you telling me you obligate the EO laity to believe doctrines that you are not a 100% sure is even correct?

Or is what you're saying, outside of dogma the EO may be wrong about everything?

But if you are subject to error, where do you get the authority from to make a dogma?

USA, I'm not trying to pick on you even though I know how you feel about Catholics and the Catholic faith. I'm just asking you to be careful that in your zeal to bring others to Orthodoxy, you don't go over board in your pandering to their Catholic bias.

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you really need to be less meanspirited towards people who are not EO/Catholic... unless you are willing to admit YOU have a catholic bias... in which case, I'll let it drop.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

It would appear that I am incorrect...

It has been dogmatically stated.

.....We also speak of the Theotokos as being Ever-Virgin, which was officially proclaimed at the 5th Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 553; the dogma concerning Mary as being Theotokos was proclaimed in 431 at the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Ephesus). .....

Forgive me...

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a time when you were in union with Rome... interesting.

Uphill Battle said:

you really need to be less meanspirited towards people who are not EO/Catholic... unless you are willing to admit YOU have a catholic bias... in which case, I'll let it drop.

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I'm not trying to be mean spirited, but beating around the bush has never been a quality of mine.

Let's just say I see things for what they are and sometimes I just can't hold my tongue. That last comment of how the EO believes they are prone to error was not said in the proper context.

the proper context is they left all the doctrines alone becuase they believe defining them further would lead to error, not that they are not error free in their theology.

It's no shock that USA is trying to bring you all in Orthodoxy and there isn't anything wrong with that. But sometimes I can see where IMO he panders to the anti catholic bias.

That's all I'm saying.

Benedicta00 said:

I'm not trying to be mean spirited, but beating around the bush has never been a quality of mine.

Let's just say I see things for what they are and sometimes I just can't hold my tongue. That last comment of how the EO believes they are prone to error was not said in the proper context.

the proper context is they left all the doctrines alone becuase they believe defining them further would lead to error, not that they are not error free in their theology.

It's no shock that USA is trying to bring you all in Orthodoxy and there isn't anything wrong with that. But sometimes I can see where IMO he panders to the anti catholic bias.

That's all I'm saying.

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ok, I apologize for saying it. I'm as subtle as a sledgehammer myself. I just quail at seeing someone who has an extremely heavy bias (and you have to, to be a member of the RCC, be biased for it) accusing of bias.

Uphill Battle said:

ok, I apologize for saying it. I'm as subtle as a sledgehammer myself. I just quail at seeing someone who has an extremely heavy bias (and you have to, to be a member of the RCC, be biased for it) accusing of bias.

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LOL. We are all bias UpHill.

But can I see how those who disagree with Rome are being pandered too.

Benedicta00 said:

LOL. We are all bias UpHill.

But can I see how those who disagree with Rome are being pandered too.

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Meaning what?

I *think* what OUSA was trying to say about the Church, is that no individual, or even groups are infallible. Only the Church as a whole is infallible. A whole group of Bishops could be wrong, such as with the Arian heresey. It took the Church as a whole to come to the Truth.

And the Orthodox Church does not dogmatize things which are not directly connected to our salvation, and the Holy Trinity. That is one reason we don't have many dogmas about the Theotokos. That's why we leave things as Mystery - such as how the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sure he didn't mean to say that anything the Church teaches dogmatically is wrong. The Holy Spirit speaks through the whole Church to keep it in Christ. Sometimes it's messy, sometimes it takes a while. But Truth prevails.

Mary

Mary of Bethany said:

I *think* what OUSA was trying to say about the Church, is that no individual, or even groups are infallible. Only the Church as a whole is infallible. A whole group of Bishops could be wrong, such as with the Arian heresey. It took the Church as a whole to come to the Truth.

And the Orthodox Church does not dogmatize things which are not directly connected to our salvation, and the Holy Trinity. That is one reason we don't have many dogmas about the Theotokos. That's why we leave things as Mystery - such as how the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sure he didn't mean to say that anything the Church teaches dogmatically is wrong. The Holy Spirit speaks through the whole Church to keep it in Christ. Sometimes it's messy, sometimes it takes a while. But Truth prevails.

Mary

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Thank You Mary...

Forgive me...