Marriage

[daverain]

I'm VERY interested in learning the Catholic view(s) on marriage.

Compared with 'others', their view(s)(Catholics and Lutherins) to me seem the most correct (anullments v divorce etc.)

Please talk to me.

 

[Dream]

Are there any specific questions we can answer for you? If you're just looking for a overview, check out NewAdvent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm.

 

[daverain]

I loved a woman and her me, and we were engaged to be married.

Other people (parents, etc.) messed up our 'ceremony', and split us up.


However, we fulfilled this: "A man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become 'one-flesh'.


I feel that we ARE married, and HAVE been bound for our lives by God.



I long for her (and she longs for me).

Time, feelings, false teachings, people, and doubt have kept us seperate (who aren't seperate).

I need someone to confirm what I know to be true.

We also need prayers.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Hi daverain, peace be with you,
Here is a small exert discussing the nature of marriage (black), divorce/anulments (blue), and a Catechism quote (red)...
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30. Holy Matrimony (Marriage)
This isthe sacrament which unites a man and woman in a holy and indissoluble bond: “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” (Matt. 19:5-6. Also see Mark 10:7-9, Eph. 5:22-32).

Marriage is a profound reflection of the nature of the relationship between Christ and the Church, and a pre-cursory to this union. The husband and wife do not live for themsevles anymore but for each other; their single most important role for the rest of their lives is to help elevate their spouse and children to sainthood, and by this they are called to make great sacrifices. Through their faith and devotion, they contribute to the future of the Church in a unique way; through the gift of life, creating the next leaders of the Church militant. [1][10]

It should be noted that marriage as we know it today has two components; a spiritual compnent and a civil (legal) component. The sacrament of Holy Matrimony is, of course, the spiritual component, and it is life-long; it can never be broken. The civil component of marriage however, is essentially a government contract, one that can be terminated through the process of divorce. It is important to note that a divorce dissolves only the civil component of marriage and has no bearing over the spiritual component. Annulments on the other hand, deal with soley the spiritual component of marriage; it is a process that determines if the marriage was in fact valid in the eyes of God rather than in the eyes of the state. Put another way, where a divorce terminates the marriage, the annulment process investigates if the marriage ever truly existed in the first place. If the Church finds that the sacrament was valid (meaning, it was performed according to the precepts of the Church and both paties entered faithfully, freely, and totally), it is considered binding in the eyes of God and they would not be allowed to re-marry. If, on the other hand, the Church finds that one or both parties did not enter into the marriage freely, faithfully or totally, or the sacrament was not properly performed, then it can be rightly concluded that the sacrament never truly took place, and thus they would be allowed to marry another. In these rare cases, the Church will grant an annulment. But never will she ever condone divorce.

“Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery….In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery” the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was…..If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.” [Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2384]

 

[Paul S]

Catholics are required to be married in a ceremony at church, or to be excused from this by the bishop. If neither party is Catholic, this requirement doesn't apply, but there probably needs to be some proof that a marriage was intended, with some sort of vows. In the Catholic Church, there's a marriage tribunal that examines all these things and determines whether a marriage is valid or not, and us lay people can't make this determination.

If neither of you have been married before, and you truly want to be together, the easiest thing to do is to have a wedding, and make it official, since we can't really judge the state of a person's marriage. I'm sorry to hear that people around you have made this difficult, and I'll pray for you that you work through this.

Rising_suns' post sums up pretty well Catholic doctrine on marriage. Marriage is for life, and divorce is not allowed. An annulment is only granted when it is found that no marriage ever took place, even if the parties believed they were married. It's not a "Catholic divorce".

 

[daverain]

Catholics are required to be married in a ceremony at church, or to be excused from this by the bishop. If neither party is Catholic, this requirement doesn't apply, but there probably needs to be some proof that a marriage was intended, with some sort of vows. ".

Thank you (all) very much.

However, the answers seem a little vague (as above).


I KNOW we're bound (=married).

It's taken 11+ years for God to show me this (that we ARE married).


Yes I would like a ceremony

(although no 'ceremony' is ever demanded in the bible),



Since we ARE ALREADY married -true love and 'consumation' has happened-, it needs to be declared (for the sake of others) as having ALREADY happened (in this 'ceremony').

Time dictates that I must go now.
Bye.

(Please keep responding/praying to this)

 

[Paul S]

I know my answer was a bit vague, but that's because only God knows whether a marriage is valid or not, and He reveals this to us through His Church, when asked. Individuals can't judge the state of someone's marriage.

I know what's required of a Catholic to be married. For non-Catholics, I'm not so sure, but the Church does accept non-Catholic and civil ceremonies to be a valid marriage between two non-Catholics.

For Catholics, while the requirements of marriage are not given in the Bible, the Church has been given authority to bind and loose (Matthew 16). Through this authority, she declares what is a valid marriage and what isn't.

All sacraments in the Church have three requirements: form, matter, and intent. While the marriages of non-Catholics (or it may be the unbaptised; I'm not sure) are not sacramental, matter and intent are still important. The matter must be an unmarried man and woman, and the intent must be to stay together for life and be open to having children.

You may feel you're married, and you very well may be, but none of us can truly know how we stand in God's eyes, since we're not God. If you did become Catholic, part of the process would include determining the validity of your marriage, and those in the Church who determine this know much more about what makes a marriage valid or invalid than us here in OBOB do.

Maybe you could discuss this with the pastor of your own church, and he could tell you what makes a valid marriage for your own denomination. Provided the matter and intent are there, the Church usually doesn't get involved in form for non-Catholics.

 

[daverain]

Thank you for that warm (and I feel sincere reply).


I feel I DO KNOW the answer already.


I feel ALMOST everything you've said (about Catholic teaching on marriage), to be what I believe myself.



Since this denomination alone (I've still to check out Lutherins though)



teaches truth vs lie (anullments vs divorce),



I would RATHER ask a Catholic, than my particular 'denomination'.




(I would rather continue to learn truth than lie).




Not too many denominations COULD see us as being a valid (NO CEREMONY) marriage.

However, since I KNOW we're married (by God), and...


Since:
Catholics DECLARE that a non-Catholic -without a ceremony- COULD (possibly) be married,

I THANK YOU GREATLY.



While -I- look to God ALONE for answers,

sometimes -others-

need a 'sign'(teaching) from (certain) people (like from Catholics).

I thank you GREATLY for this 'sign'.

Please keep -us- in your prayers
(comments still welcome)

Goodbye.

 

[Dream]

While -I- look to God ALONE for answers,

What better place to get direct answers than the Church that God created?

I'm glad your question was answered. (The other guys beat me to it). Their answers are probablly a lot more detalied that mine would have been too.

Keep coming back here to ask any questions you have.

 

[daverain]

Since you asked me...

EVEN though a church is of God (and does have the Holy Spirit),

because it (=God's Church), does the following:


1.) Declares a marriage valid,


and then...


2.) Nullifies it....


This means that:

- a LIE -

was told somewhere.

Since God does NOT lie (ever), I'll look ONLY to Him.

-Thanks.

(P.S. Once upon a time, there was a HIGH-priest (in God's-Church) named: Caiaphas. He did evil in God's sight. He would -NOT- have been one to look to for: answers about how to love God properly.).

 

[Skripper]

Since you asked me...

EVEN though a church is of God (and does have the Holy Spirit),
because it (=God's Church), does the following:

1.) Declares a marriage valid,
and then...

2.) Nullifies it....

This means that:

- a LIE -

was told somewhere.

Since God does NOT lie (ever), I'll look ONLY to Him.

-Thanks.

In the case of an anullment, it doesn't mean that a "lie" necessarily was told somewhere. It simply means that a valid marriage never existed, even if it appeared to be. However, this is not for the laity to take upon themselves to decide or determine. Especially not based upon feelings. Moreover, we are to look to Him by the means He established, His Church on earth, and not necessarily as our feelings dictate.

(P.S. Once upon a time, there was a HIGH-priest (in God's-Church) named: Caiaphas. He did evil in God's sight. He would -NOT- have been one to look to for: answers about how to love God properly.).

Several points need to be made here. First, any evil Ciaphas committed did not in any way invalidate his High Priesthood or the authority by which he taught.

Two, even though he did evil, God still worked through him and he was still High Priest. In fact, the Bible tells us that Ciaphas even prophesied, specifically because of the fact that he was "high priest" that year: 49 But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all; 50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.(John 11:49-53, emphasis added).

Three, Ciaphas as High Priest, and indeed all the scribes and Pharisees, have taken their seat on the chair of Moses and therefore taught with authority that was to be obeyed, according to Jesus. (Matthew 23:2-3) Jesus even explicitly spoke regarding this very issue, recognizing that the authority of those who sat on Moses' seat was valid, despite their personal shortcomings, and the obligation to obey what they said, what they taught, regardless of their personal hypocrisy. Jesus never indicated that the teachings of those who sat on Moses’ Seat could be ignored in order to follow one’s own feelings and do what one wanted simply because those who sat on the chair of Moses did evil and were even at times hypocrites . . . no. Quite the opposite is actually what Jesus taught because in fact Jesus' instruction was not to ignore them when one disagreed with them but rather to, “Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.” (Matthew 23:23, emphasis added)

Finally, Ciaphas was High Priest under the Old Covenant, prior to Jesus Christ establishing the New Covenant and His Church on earth. We are to follow Jesus under the New Covenant, by way of His Church on earth.

 

[daverain]

By your logic...


Jesus should have listened to them and NOT heal on the Sabbath, AND also...

He should have used the purification-bowls to wash before a meal (He also should have recieved the rebuke for His disciples picking grain)

He also should have recieved their instruction that : "What He did was done by the power of the devil."

Sorry, I disagree with you.

Also, prophecying someones death, and then using this to MURDER Him, was a VERY-EVIL thing to do indeed

Bye for now.

P.S. I'd ask God alone if a marriage were valid ('just in case')

 

[Paul S]

The difference is Jesus is God, and God is not bound by His own laws. The rest of us are not God, and cannot change God's laws on our own. He has given this authority only to the Church and the successors of Peter.

 

[daverain]

What about John The Baptist?

He Was NOT God, and he didn't take instruction from the pharisees (but THEY should have recieved instruction from: -God through- him).

 

[daverain]

In the case of an anullment, it doesn't mean that a "lie" necessarily was told somewhere....

... Finally, Ciaphas was High Priest under the Old Covenant, prior to Jesus Christ establishing the New Covenant and His Church on earth. We are to follow Jesus under the New Covenant, by way of His Church on earth.

1.) When one says a 'lie' hasn't "necessarily" been told (as above),

then one IMPLIES that a lie has POSSIBLY been told (which WOULDN'T happen with God-directly EVER).

However, the argument concerning the New Covenant is a point I'm not prepared YET to discuss

(INDEED, the New Covenant has changed many things, and The Holy Spirit has given eternal-life -starting at Pentecost: "Whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is GREATER than John the baptsit." -Jesus

I'll ask God about this, and in His own good time (as I go through this life),
He'll answer me through: thoughts, feelings, and 'signs', in a way that COULDN'T be from my own imaginations, 'other source' etc.

(how marriage works took about: 1 week)

I'm sorry If I've offended anyone here, as this conversation has developed into something unexpected by me.

Also I've received help.

Time demands I must go for now.

Goodbye.

 

[Stormy]

I loved a woman and her me, and we were engaged to be married.

Read your own words... we were engaged to be married.

You were not married. Sleeping with your lover does not make you married.

I do not understand what the others are telling you on this thread. But the truth is you are living in sin and you are also hurting the one you profess to love. Ask for God to forgive you and then with a repentant heart.... Marry the girl!!

Sorry to be so blunt... But you seem to be getting a different idea of the Church and its teaching.

 

[Paul S]

What about John The Baptist?

He Was NOT God, and he didn't take instruction from the pharisees (but THEY should have recieved instruction from: -God through- him).

As far as I know, John followed the Law of Moses. He did tell the Pharisees that they weren't acting in accordance with the Law, and were being hypocrites, but he condemned their actions, not their teaching.

 

[Skripper]

By your logic...


Jesus should have listened to them and NOT heal on the Sabbath, AND also...

He should have used the purification-bowls to wash before a meal (He also should have recieved the rebuke for His disciples picking grain)

He also should have recieved their instruction that : "What He did was done by the power of the devil."

Sorry, I disagree with you.

Also, prophecying someones death, and then using this to MURDER Him, was a VERY-EVIL thing to do indeed

Bye for now.

P.S. I'd ask God alone if a marriage were valid ('just in case')

Let's not bend what I said. And it's not exactly "my logic," Dave. It's Jesus'. His words are there for all to see. One can take it or leave it. *shrug* One can do as one wills. I didn't mean to upset you . . .

 

[Skripper]

1.) When one says a 'lie' hasn't "necessarily" been told (as above),

then one IMPLIES that a lie has POSSIBLY been told (which WOULDN'T happen with God-directly EVER).

However, the argument concerning the New Covenant is a point I'm not prepared YET to discuss

(INDEED, the New Covenant has changed many things, and The Holy Spirit has given eternal-life -starting at Pentecost: "Whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is GREATER than John the baptsit." -Jesus

I'll ask God about this, and in His own good time (as I go through this life),
He'll answer me through: thoughts, feelings, and 'signs', in a way that COULDN'T be from my own imaginations, 'other source' etc.

(how marriage works took about: 1 week)

I'm sorry If I've offended anyone here, as this conversation has developed into something unexpected by me.

Also I've received help.

Time demands I must go for now.

Goodbye.

Dave,

If you are looking for folks here to condone what amounts to fornication, I'm afraid that's unlikely. Moreover, if your position is that you are following God's instruction via some private revelation, where He tells you something that is different and in contrast to what He teaches everyone else through Scripture and His Church . . . and that He is either telling you that you are married by virtue of being together and in love or that He is telling you that it's okay for you to fornicate, while He says this isn't okay for the rest of us . . . well I doubt anyone here will convince you otherwise.

Peace.

 

[sculpturegirl]

Dave- Since you feel that you are married in the eye of God, why don't you simply go to the courthouse and be married in the eyes of the state?

Would Catholics consider this a valid marriage then? I think Lutherans would, though we don't consider marriage a sacrament, although it a very holy state.