Marriage - it may not be worth it anymore (for men)

LoveDivine · Jul 31, 2023

Sketcher said:
That's definitely a component with me. Having Biblical standards instead of worldly standards for a wife does fit under that broad category, though it will never complete with the threat of my head getting cut off. It doesn't mean that I can't or won't speak against the cultural forces that contribute to the scarcity though. If you don't call out the traps, more people might fall into them.

You know the analogy about the blind people describing an elephant? You're describing a different part of the elephant. I'm describing another part of the elephant. With that recognition, it doesn't have to feel like backlash.

That is the good fight, and people wonder why relatively few men feel called to foreign missions. The good fight is right here. I will also tell you that it's easier said than done, because it's fighting decades worth of cultural corruption. The defined victory in this context is to significantly improve the options that single Christians have to find Biblically eligible partners. That's going to be a grind, and I do not expect that I will see any benefit. If things go really, really well, maybe guys my nephew's age will see a benefit at some point in their adult lives. Of course, I hope my nephew won't still be single when he is my age.

We do need to practice self-denial and strive for holiness. Both sexes need to.

I don't disagree with anything you posted. I don't mean to compare physical persecution with the inability to find a Christian spouse, but both are sufferings that we may have to endure. I agree that the mess we are in didn't happen overnight. It started a long time ago, when churches started to take sin less seriously and started to follow the ideologies/trends of the world. It was a subtle and gradual compromise that wasn't so noticeable at first (there were still intact/traditional families), but has resulted in the current demise of the family and marriage. I've noticed a huge decline just within the past 10 years. I don't think any Christians wanted what we have now; this is what happens though when we excuse sin and start to justify worldly behavior. We end up with more dysfunction than we can handle. Not to mention, most young people today were kind of dealt a bad hand so to speak. Very few people my age still have parents who remained married to each other. Most grew up in dysfunctional and damaging situations and watched their parents divorce. If anything the current generation was set up to fail. We have bad examples from the previous generation and a lack of proper Christianity being taught in churches. So really, it makes sense that this generation would be devoured by the devil (who is always trying to undermine the sanctity of marriage and the family).
That doesn't mean that everyone who ends up divorced is at fault; some people are trapped in abusive relationships or with someone who is unfaithful. There will always be extenuating circumstances

But on a less bleak note, positive change can also happen very quickly. It would take prayer and repentance. Christians first have to deal with their own issues and compromise (Judgement begins in the house of God) and be committed to reach others and to contend for the faith. Society is never going to change bad laws unless there is a push from Christians. We can take some heart that things can change; just look at the reversal of abortion laws. Nothing is so far gone.

We may not personally benefit from trying to share truth, but we should still try. At the very least, we can be strengthened from it spiritually to avoid many pitfalls in our own personal lives. I mentioned the role that young men play, but it's not just their responsibility. Christian women also have that responsibility to live rightly and to be a good example and testimony for others. Both genders have equal responsibility before God.

I do like this verse from 1 John 2: 14: I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. I think that is a great recommendation for the role /value of young and zealous Christian men within the church. They are the ones most engaged in the establishment of the church.

Sketcher · Jul 31, 2023

YankeeGirl said:
I agree that the mess we are in didn't happen overnight. It started a long time ago, when churches started to take sin less seriously and started to follow the ideologies/trends of the world. It was a subtle and gradual compromise that wasn't so noticeable at first (there were still intact/traditional families), but has resulted in the current demise of the family and marriage. I've noticed a huge decline just within the past 10 years. I don't think any Christians wanted what we have now; this is what happens though when we excuse sin and start to justify worldly behavior. We end up with more dysfunction than we can handle.

That doesn't mean that everyone who ends up divorced is at fault; some people are trapped in abusive relationships or with someone who is unfaithful. There will always be extenuating circumstances

The latter was used to justify the former, and it continues to this day. It happens at CF. It happens to just about every divorced and remarried couple you talk to. Coincidence? I think not. Will pastors preach against it? Not enough do, because they need to keep attendance up and the money flowing.

YankeeGirl said:
But on a less bleak note, positive change can also happen very quickly. It would take prayer and repentance. Christians first have to deal with their own issues and compromise (Judgement begins in the house of God)

Space needs to be made for the kind of repentance that needs to happen. The first people who will oppose this are going to be the compromised Christians. They need to see that not repenting is not an option.

YankeeGirl said:
and be committed to reach others and to contend for the faith. Society is never going to change bad laws unless there is a push from Christians.

Yes, when a base movement has been established, more people can be drawn in.

YankeeGirl said:
We can take some heart that things can change; just look at the reversal of abortion laws. Nothing is so far gone.

In some states. Others went the other way. If I ever see reversals in these states and in Australia and Canada, I will have reason to be optimistic.

That doesn't mean I don't pray for it and do what I can.

Aussie Pete · Aug 1, 2023

myst33 said:
Many Christian men are still hooked in the idea that the traditional wife or the traditional marriage is something still common today. And they end up in a very bad shape, when they realize it is not.

Be careful not to project old ideas into the world in which these ideas no longer exist. So that you will not be destroyed. The justice system will be against you, will not hold to the same values as you do and will not care about any traditional values.

If you have any doubts or see some red flags about your woman, do not marry her.

I was married for 9 years, divorced and then was single until last year. I'm 72, my wife 71. I never expected to remarry. I knew my wife long before we married. Watchman Nee had good advice. Find out everything you can about your prospective spouse. If there is something that you could not live with, don't marry him/her. Once you are committed, close your eyes.

Most marriages that fail founder on the rock of unforgiveness. A marriage can go from good to separation in a year when there is no forgiveness.

If anyone is considering marriage, I recommend Mark Gungor's seminars. He is incredibly funny, does not promote the idea that men are at fault, and his teaching is practical as well. I'd advise the couple to watch together. You will have a hoot and learn a lot at the same time.

trophy33 · Aug 1, 2023

YankeeGirl said:
I wanted to add some thoughts to this discussion. I agree that traditional marriage and values are not really common anymore in our society. In fact, the entire definition of marriage has been undermined and legally is no longer exclusive to a relationship between one man and woman. It should not be surprising to us that if the very legal definition of marriage has changed that the laws have also changed. There are many pitfalls and risks to marriage for both genders. However, since this thread was about the disadvantages for men, I will limit my examples and points to men only.

Interestingly enough, the biggest risk to Christian men is not financial. It is spiritual. If you do not marry a true Christian you are becoming one flesh in the sight of God with someone who isn't in right standing with God. How do you think your spiritual life is going to fare if you make such a covenant? You run a great risk to your spiritual life and well being. And, should that marriage end in divorce you also have broken vows. That is no light thing.

The problem today is that Christians have forgotten how to be Christians. They have become worldly and embraced so much secular ideology and then wonder why their marriages crumble. It doesn't matter what secular society defines marriage as or what laws it has in place: the Biblical standard for marriage still holds true. If you marry a real Christian and you yourself are one, you don't need to worry about these laws, because the Christian will be constrained by their own conscience and the moral law of God which is much higher. There are many sins I can legally commit, but I will never commit them because of my restraint from being a Christian. It doesn't matter if society permits it.

In conclusion, Christian men need to be Christians themselves first and get their sexual appetites and passions under control so that they can be patient and celibate for a time and make decisions to look for a Godly partner that are based on prayer and discernment and not desire. If you are worldly and compromise when it comes to the biggest decision of your life, don't blame society for the consequences that come with disobeying God. I've seen countless Christians of both genders defending the right to date non-Christians or to have premarital sex and then are surprised that Christian marriages don't fare better than secular ones.

I agree that true Christians should marry true Christians. In some countries, states or places it may basically mean to stay unmarried even if the person seeks for a marriage.

ThisIsMe123 · Aug 1, 2023

YankeeGirl said:
I've seen countless Christians of both genders defending the right to date non-Christians

I don't think I've seen this happen, I mean, I have never heard a Christian say to me that she'll date a non-Christian, I mean, I never heard them actually DEFENDING it. So I'm not sure where you're hearing this?

I have seen people marry Christians of different religion. Like a Methodist and a Catholic marrying.

Like I mentioned earlier, that when I went to Christian singles groups at an after-church function in my mid-20s, I was in shock to see already divorced women of the same age.

Back then, divorced women were part of my deal breaker list. It has an grossness to me...at least back then. Most of them married at 18 or 19 and divorced in their mid 20s...and back on the market again obviously by attending these groups.

The fact it was such a short-lived marriage is what turned me off about them.

ThisIsMe123 · Aug 1, 2023

YankeeGirl said:
I don't disagree with anything you posted. I don't mean to compare physical persecution with the inability to find a Christian spouse, but both are sufferings that we may have to endure. I agree that the mess we are in didn't happen overnight. It started a long time ago, when churches started to take sin less seriously and started to follow the ideologies/trends of the world. It was a subtle and gradual compromise that wasn't so noticeable at first (there were still intact/traditional families), but has resulted in the current demise of the family and marriage. I've noticed a huge decline just within the past 10 years. I don't think any Christians wanted what we have now; this is what happens though when we excuse sin and start to justify worldly behavior. We end up with more dysfunction than we can handle. Not to mention, most young people today were kind of dealt a bad hand so to speak. Very few people my age still have parents who remained married to each other. Most grew up in dysfunctional and damaging situations and watched their parents divorce. If anything the current generation was set up to fail. We have bad examples from the previous generation and a lack of proper Christianity being taught in churches. So really, it makes sense that this generation would be devoured by the devil (who is always trying to undermine the sanctity of marriage and the family).
That doesn't mean that everyone who ends up divorced is at fault; some people are trapped in abusive relationships or with someone who is unfaithful. There will always be extenuating circumstances

But on a less bleak note, positive change can also happen very quickly. It would take prayer and repentance. Christians first have to deal with their own issues and compromise (Judgement begins in the house of God) and be committed to reach others and to contend for the faith. Society is never going to change bad laws unless there is a push from Christians. We can take some heart that things can change; just look at the reversal of abortion laws. Nothing is so far gone.

We may not personally benefit from trying to share truth, but we should still try. At the very least, we can be strengthened from it spiritually to avoid many pitfalls in our own personal lives. I mentioned the role that young men play, but it's not just their responsibility. Christian women also have that responsibility to live rightly and to be a good example and testimony for others. Both genders have equal responsibility before God.

I do like this verse from 1 John 2: 14: I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. I think that is a great recommendation for the role /value of young and zealous Christian men within the church. They are the ones most engaged in the establishment of the church.

if someone was a decent Christian...they'd at least WORK on their marriage if there is a rough patch here and there. I never understood why people just walk out on marriages when the going gets tough.

Sadly, the post seems to be on point, as it's the women who tend to initiate the divorces most of the time.

ThisIsMe123 · Aug 1, 2023

Sketcher said:
The world works very hard to break that restraint down. People blame colleges and universities but that's only part of the picture. People who have never been to college get the same vices and the same worldly values through compromise. Part of it is through the Internet, part of it is through others in the church who have compromised:

"But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works." - Revelation 2:20-23

If we deal with it, Jesus doesn't have to deal with it.

100% agreed that these are bad practices. Unfortunately, it is hard to find someone who hasn't had premarital sex, even if you haven't had it yourself. It is also hard to find someone who is not easily corrupted by her friends, neighbors, and coworkers who do not follow the Lord. It might not happen in a year, but give it 10 years and see where she's at.

Ideally, she would really have that inflappable integrity but that's rare and it doesn't grow in overnight. Second best is she has a community of Christian ladies who have that integrity and hold her accountable. Instead, that community either doesn't exist or is tainted by the Jezebel compromise.

Curious, why do people blame college?

Sketcher · Aug 1, 2023

ThisIsMe123 said:
Curious, why do people blame college?

That's where a lot of liberal values are encountered for the first time, including liberal sexual values, and the incoming freshmen feel pressured to embrace it. While that part is true, it's not exclusive to colleges. It definitely spreads to people that haven't gone these days.

TheLastGeek · Aug 1, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
I was married for 9 years, divorced and then was single until last year. I'm 72, my wife 71. I never expected to remarry. I knew my wife long before we married. Watchman Nee had good advice. Find out everything you can about your prospective spouse. If there is something that you could not live with, don't marry him/her. Once you are committed, close your eyes.

Most marriages that fail founder on the rock of unforgiveness. A marriage can go from good to separation in a year when there is no forgiveness.

If anyone is considering marriage, I recommend Mark Gungor's seminars. He is incredibly funny, does not promote the idea that men are at fault, and his teaching is practical as well. I'd advise the couple to watch together. You will have a hoot and learn a lot at the same time.

What a delightful and happy tale, to hear that you found love again later in life. Thank you for sharing.

TheLastGeek · Aug 1, 2023

ThisIsMe123 said:
I don't think I've seen this happen, I mean, I have never heard a Christian say to me that she'll date a non-Christian, I mean, I never heard them actually DEFENDING it. So I'm not sure where you're hearing this?

I've seen it in this very forum (though don't ask me who and when, I don't remember). Men stating that Christian women are too picky, have standards that are too high, or that Christian women are too scarce, so they go date non-Christian women instead.

TheLastGeek · Aug 1, 2023

ThisIsMe123 said:
if someone was a decent Christian...they'd at least WORK on their marriage if there is a rough patch here and there. I never understood why people just walk out on marriages when the going gets tough.

Sadly, the post seems to be on point, as it's the women who tend to initiate the divorces most of the time.

Most people don't know HOW to deal with conflict in a healthy, productive way. It's becoming less and less of a skill in our current culture, too. The tiniest discomforts are labeled "offensive", "violence", "trauma", "abuse". People fall apart over everything that hurts their feelings. Are we really shocked that when something as complex as a marriage reveals difficulties, that they just cut and run? They have no tools to work on it. They don't even have the capacity to acknowledge the breadth and depth of what's happening. It's easier to clam up inside the Shell of Victimhood and deflect any and all accountability or criticism. Baring one's soul and becoming excruciatingly vulnerable, as is required when a marriage is in trouble, requires immense strength. And we're quickly becoming a society of mental, emotional, and spiritual weaklings.

TheLastGeek · Aug 1, 2023

ThisIsMe123 said:
Curious, why do people blame college?

I was wondering that myself, lol. That's not something I've heard much, either.

High Fidelity · Aug 1, 2023

TheLastGeek said:
Most people don't know HOW to deal with conflict in a healthy, productive way.

Communication is far and above the most important skill and courtesy both parties need to afford one another in a relationship. Without good communication there will be issues at some point that can't be fixed for one or many reasons, but probably pride, stubbornness or resentment.

Communication is something I have always made a very important fundamental to express and expect early in a relationship. It's one of those things that needs to be established early because it's far harder to introduce later when negative habits have already set in that good communication could perhaps have avoided, or made easier to address.

ZephBonkerer · Aug 7, 2023

From 10,000 feet up it's a valid question: Why should a man enter into an agreement where the terms are unfairly weighted against him in the event a dispute arises? I'm not concurring with the premise of that question, I'm only noting that it's reasonable question to ask it.

Back when the #MeToo hashtag was a thing, I've heard of male business manager refusing to hire women for certain positions because the men were not confident the courts would give him a fair hearing in the event they were accused of any untoward behavior by a woman. There were people saying things like "believe all women" regardless of the nature of the evidence, so I can't say I blame these men.

ThisIsMe123 · Aug 8, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
From 10,000 feet up it's a valid question: Why should a man enter into an agreement where the terms are unfairly weighted against him in the event a dispute arises? I'm not concurring with the premise of that question, I'm only noting that it's reasonable question to ask it.

Back when the #MeToo hashtag was a thing, I've heard of male business manager refusing to hire women for certain positions because the men were not confident the courts would give him a fair hearing in the event they were accused of any untoward behavior by a woman. There were people saying things like "believe all women" regardless of the nature of the evidence, so I can't say I blame these men.

Yeah, I read up on that. When I saw "believe all women" I was like "Yeah, that's not going to go over well. I think it's because in the past, women were never really believed because it was something that was hard to prove in courts.

MeToo evolved to women setting up smart phones in the gym, recording men trying to talk to them, and then shaming them on TIk Tok...when sometimes the topic the men bring up is just involving whether or not they are done with the equipment.

Sometimes, it was just some guy walking by, looking her direction...but not engaging.

The whole in-person approach to trying to talk to other single women has ruined the dating and mating ritual.

trophy33 · Aug 8, 2023

While realizing the trend, the documentary does not understand the causes too well. But people in the comments section explained what are their real reasons.

Niels · Aug 8, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
From 10,000 feet up it's a valid question: Why should a man enter into an agreement where the terms are unfairly weighted against him in the event a dispute arises? I'm not concurring with the premise of that question, I'm only noting that it's reasonable question to ask it.

Back when the #MeToo hashtag was a thing, I've heard of male business manager refusing to hire women for certain positions because the men were not confident the courts would give him a fair hearing in the event they were accused of any untoward behavior by a woman. There were people saying things like "believe all women" regardless of the nature of the evidence, so I can't say I blame these men.

ThisIsMe123 said:
Yeah, I read up on that. When I saw "believe all women" I was like "Yeah, that's not going to go over well. I think it's because in the past, women were never really believed because it was something that was hard to prove in courts.

MeToo evolved to women setting up smart phones in the gym, recording men trying to talk to them, and then shaming them on TIk Tok...when sometimes the topic the men bring up is just involving whether or not they are done with the equipment.

Sometimes, it was just some guy walking by, looking her direction...but not engaging.

The whole in-person approach to trying to talk to other single women has ruined the dating and mating ritual.

As with men, some women are more trustworthy than others. I'm more likely to believe a man I can trust than a man I can't trust. And even then, it isn't as simple as blindly believing an individual's word without verification. Especially when somebody is accused of a heinous act. Take the claim seriously and investigate, but for goodness sake don't just believe somebody because of their gender! Can you imagine somebody saying "believe all men"? That would be ridiculous.

Are there men who categorically don't believe women? Yes there are, but the way I see it men like that shouldn't be trusted. I don't think this has much if anything to do with how people were in the past. There are lots of people like that today. Likewise, in the past there were also people who knew that gender isn't valid criteria for trustworthiness.

ZephBonkerer · Aug 9, 2023

myst33 said:
While realizing the trend, the documentary does not understand the causes too well. But people in the comments section explained what are their real reasons.

Was this video available at the time you posted a link to it? It isn't now.

ZephBonkerer · Aug 9, 2023

Miles said:
As with men, some women are more trustworthy than others. I'm more likely to believe a man I can trust than a man I can't trust. And even then, it isn't as simple as blindly believing an individual's word without verification. Especially when somebody is accused of a heinous act. Take the claim seriously and investigate, but for goodness sake don't just believe somebody because of their gender! Can you imagine somebody saying "believe all men"? That would be ridiculous.

Are there men who categorically don't believe women? Yes there are, but the way I see it men like that shouldn't be trusted. I don't think this has much if anything to do with how people were in the past. There are lots of people like that today. Likewise, in the past there were also people who knew that gender isn't valid criteria for trustworthiness.

We are supposed to assess the credibility of testimony based on the nature of the corroborating evidence, the character of the witness giving the testimony, and other relevant factors. Race, class, and gender are not appropriate criteria for assessing such credibility.

This came up during the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. Three women accused Brett of sexual misconduct from decades ago. The character and credibility of these witnesses was such that nobody would have given them the time of day unless someone had a political incentive to do so.

The star witness could not remember major details of the night in question, but claimed to remember lesser details to perfect clarity. While that itself might not have been enough to dismiss her, the lack of a corroborating witness would be a major problem for her story. That and her "memory failures" appeared selective at times.

Another witness made wild claims of parties where gang rape were taking place. It begged the question of why were there no other witnesses to this, and why she continued to place herself in harm's way by attending these parties.

ThisIsMe123 · Aug 9, 2023

ZephBonkerer said:
why she continued to place herself in harm's way by attending these parties.

This statement cannot be considered, because it's irrelevant actually. It's actually victim blaming.

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