Marriage - it may not be worth it anymore (for men)

TheLastGeek said:

See, contrary to popular belief, a godly Christian woman who is interested in marriage is NOT going to put materialism at the top of her list of what she desires in a man.

What is this well-off, stable, home-owning guy LIKE?

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Exactly! You can have all of that and be a jerk. You need more than a good job and a house for someone to stay with you for the rest of their life. Because you're the problem.

Your thoughts. Your behavior. Your words. And your attitude.

Relationships end because of the things we've said, done or failed to do. Few enter marriages wholly clueless. They've had warning signs about the person's character and ignored them because they liked them, didn't want to be alone, or convinced themselves they'd change.

I don't buy the bad apple narrative. Whenever someone posts about their relationship I always ask what were they were like when they were dating. Without fail their response includes clues they were dealing with a bad apple.

If we keep running into people like that we need to stop pointing fingers and look at ourselves. I don't run across 'bad boys' nor am I looking for qualities that attract them. We have to ask ourselves what are we projecting that makes us attractive to the wrong ones.

If you're looking for tens and qualities along those lines you'll draw gold diggers and worse and that's your fault. But if you're looking for a godly woman you're fishing in a different pond. A lot of people are seeking worldliness with a Christian stamp. Most of the things they emphasize have nothing to do with God or the Christian walk. And they're judged by the world's standards.

When you're in the world you play by their rules. That's when numbers and percentages come in. People who walk with the Lord aren't on that page. We're looking for character and more.

~bella

TheLastGeek said:

See, contrary to popular belief, a godly Christian woman who is interested in marriage is NOT going to put materialism at the top of her list of what she desires in a man.

What is this well-off, stable, home-owning guy LIKE?

Is he kind? Is he honest? Is he even-tempered? Is he intelligent? Is he humble? Is he self-controlled? Is he pleasant to be around? Does he have a healthy balance between work and family/friend/hobby relationships? What are his aspirations for the rest of his life? How is he around children? Does he know how to be frugal and prepare for the future, or does he spend all his money trying to impress his neighbors or women around him? Is he generous and giving of his time and talents for others?

Soooo many other things to look for.

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Well, I was just talking about how they can't even get a response on dating sites. These ladies would have to meet him in person to see what he's like, but it's a struggle to even get them to meet them for a bite to eat.

ThisIsMe123 said:

Well, I was just talking about how they can't even get a response on dating sites. These ladies would have to meet him in person to see what he's like, but it's a struggle to even get them to meet them for a bite to eat.

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It's not much easier for women, regardless of what some may say. Men chase after beauty, not depth, so if you have a stellar personality, flawless integrity, a sparkling wit, but a plain face? Silence.

TheLastGeek said:

It's not much easier for women, regardless of what some may say. Men chase after beauty, not depth, so if you have a stellar personality, flawless integrity, a sparkling wit, but a plain face? Silence.

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There's some truth to that but in the long run the body wins out. If you have a nice shape you'll get attention whether or not you're attractive. A little bb cream goes a long way. Don't go Kardashian and start contouring. That's ridiculous.

Confidence really helps. If you focus on the negatives you won't be comfortable in your own skin. I don't believe in apologizing for the way you look. But if you feel certain things are hindering your attractiveness and you want to work on them I think its okay. And if you don't that's fine as well.

It isn't difficult to enhance your appearance. Well fitting clothes, a flattering silhouette, complementary hues, hair and makeup. That will do wonders for most. But it takes some effort. Most people wear what they like or follow a trend without considering if its suitable for them.

From a designers perspective, most of the clothing isn't appropriate for everyone. You have to take a Steve Jobs approach and find your uniform. Put on a outfit and photograph yourself from four angles: front and back and the sides. You need to see yourself from different positions. That's how you discover your best side and what items and cuts complement you more than others. You'll see the nuances of your shape. Someone may be an hourglass but it looks different from behind.

Then you look at color season to determine what hues complement your complexion and highlight the features you want. You apply it to your clothes, makeup, jewelry and accessories. You do the same with your hair and avoid styles that emphasize the things you want to downplay or minimize. You'll learn how to choose focal points and redirect the eye.

If you want to go deeper you can delve into style essences. It categorizes shape, height and features into various groups. Like romantic, classic, gamine, etc. It uses a yin and yang approach along a scale. With yin being the softest with rounded features and curves and yang being more angular and sharp. The midpoint is neither hard or soft. It has a bit of both. Each style is created with a body type in mind or is more apropos for certain shapes more than others. Once you know that you'd look for brands that design for your body type. One way to tell is by looking at the models.

Once you have your uniform stick to it. That's how people look pulled together. They don't pop out a cake looking like Barbie. They develop a formula that helps them look their best.

That wasn't directed to you specifically. But since you mentioned it I thought I'd share.

~bella

ThisIsMe123 said:

That's a very good point, but it also had unintended consequences.

My mom had a co-worker that had a valuable guitar collection. He was married 10 years. His wife was pre-planning their divorce, unbeknownst to him.

She had his collection appraised, while he was at work, and sold it at a pawn shop or something. She even drained his bank account in secret.

Nothing on Earth could have prevented that, as she kept it secret.

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TheLastGeek said:

To be fair, this is true to a point. I've witnessed firsthand the way men get absolutely gutted financially by ex's who don't actually need their money, but they want to punish the man as severely as possible, and they want the fattest possible monthly check they can squeeze out of him.

When my son was little, I wanted a clean break from my ex. We were not married, but I could have taken him for all he had in child support. The family court mediator told me flat-out that I didn't need any proof of what his occupation was or how much money he made. All I had to do was tell them whatever I thought he was making, and they'd write it down, and it would be used to determine his child support payments. How on earth is that ethical? It's not. I decided I didn't want any part of it, I didn't want anything from him (even though I had virtually nothing and lived in low income housing with my son and we certainly could have used financial help). I went to the family court judge and told him I wanted to dismiss the order entirely, including any arrears. He looked at me like I had three heads, and asked if someone had threatened me to make me do this.

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Yes sure, there are women who take advantage of the system and some of the horror stories are genuine horror stories. But my point was divorce laws didn't change because of some anti-man agenda, but rather the intention was to improve the lot of women. How well that's worked is another matter.

myst33 said:

Can you see that?

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The first comment of mine is obviously referring to men "who post comments like that", not every man on earth.

As for the second, if there are heterosexual men who don't consider physical attractiveness to be the first and foremost desirable feature in a potential mate, they are exceptions to the rule. I couldn't tell you the last time I met a man who said he'd fall head over heels for an average-looking woman with a great personality. Do you disagree?

TheLastGeek said:

The first comment of mine is obviously referring to men "who post comments like that", not every man on earth.

As for the second, if there are heterosexual men who don't consider physical attractiveness to be the first and foremost desirable feature in a potential mate, they are exceptions to the rule. I couldn't tell you the last time I met a man who said he'd fall head over heels for an average-looking woman with a great personality. Do you disagree?

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There's a guy at work that met his new bride-to-be (met at work) that's average looking that fell head over heals for her. Both very much practicing Christians.

Of course, it's all subjective.

ThisIsMe123 said:

There's a guy at work that met his new bride-to-be (met at work) that's average looking that fell head over heals for her. Both very much practicing Christians.

Of course, it's all subjective.

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That's a lovely story.

myst33 said:

I know, I quoted it for illustration that you even expanded your reaction and tried to belittle him even more, just because he used generalization and expressed his opinions - even though you used the same generalization and the similar kind of opinions later.


I meet/see many pairs in which women are not attractive. I would even say that the majority of women I see in pairs with men are not the attractive ones. Its mostly the really attractive ones I see being alone.

I would not exaggerate that they must have a "great personality". Even just an acceptable personality can help them to have a man. I would also not exaggerate with "falling head over heels for her". Such emotional overshoots are not needed, in real life.

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I wasn't belittling him. I don't know him to do such a thing. His comment was vicious and caustic and leveled against every woman in the world, without exception. We all make comments about "men" and "women" now and then, but it's rare to see anyone on this forum say anything so cruelly careless.

You may use any phrase you like instead of "head over heels" to imply the intimate, romantic connection between a man and a woman. There was not "emotional overshooting" happening. I trust we're all sensible enough to know what was meant.

myst33 said:

Many Christian men are still hooked in the idea that the traditional wife or the traditional marriage is something still common today. And they end up in a very bad shape, when they realize it is not.

Be careful not to project old ideas into the world in which these ideas no longer exist. So that you will not be destroyed. The justice system will be against you, will not hold to the same values as you do and will not care about any traditional values.

If you have any doubts or see some red flags about your woman, do not marry her.

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I wanted to add some thoughts to this discussion. I agree that traditional marriage and values are not really common anymore in our society. In fact, the entire definition of marriage has been undermined and legally is no longer exclusive to a relationship between one man and woman. It should not be surprising to us that if the very legal definition of marriage has changed that the laws have also changed. There are many pitfalls and risks to marriage for both genders. However, since this thread was about the disadvantages for men, I will limit my examples and points to men only.

Interestingly enough, the biggest risk to Christian men is not financial. It is spiritual. If you do not marry a true Christian you are becoming one flesh in the sight of God with someone who isn't in right standing with God. How do you think your spiritual life is going to fare if you make such a covenant? You run a great risk to your spiritual life and well being. And, should that marriage end in divorce you also have broken vows. That is no light thing.

The problem today is that Christians have forgotten how to be Christians. They have become worldly and embraced so much secular ideology and then wonder why their marriages crumble. It doesn't matter what secular society defines marriage as or what laws it has in place: the Biblical standard for marriage still holds true. If you marry a real Christian and you yourself are one, you don't need to worry about these laws, because the Christian will be constrained by their own conscience and the moral law of God which is much higher. There are many sins I can legally commit, but I will never commit them because of my restraint from being a Christian. It doesn't matter if society permits it.

In conclusion, Christian men need to be Christians themselves first and get their sexual appetites and passions under control so that they can be patient and celibate for a time and make decisions to look for a Godly partner that are based on prayer and discernment and not desire. If you are worldly and compromise when it comes to the biggest decision of your life, don't blame society for the consequences that come with disobeying God. I've seen countless Christians of both genders defending the right to date non-Christians or to have premarital sex and then are surprised that Christian marriages don't fare better than secular ones.

YankeeGirl said:

The problem today is that Christians have forgotten how to be Christians. They have become worldly and embraced so much secular ideology and then wonder why their marriages crumble. It doesn't matter what secular society defines marriage as or what laws it has in place: the Biblical standard for marriage still holds true. If you marry a real Christian and you yourself are one, you don't need to worry about these laws, because the Christian will be constrained by their own conscience and the moral law of God which is much higher. There are many sins I can legally commit, but I will never commit them because of my restraint from being a Christian. It doesn't matter if society permits it.

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The world works very hard to break that restraint down. People blame colleges and universities but that's only part of the picture. People who have never been to college get the same vices and the same worldly values through compromise. Part of it is through the Internet, part of it is through others in the church who have compromised:

"But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works." - Revelation 2:20-23

If we deal with it, Jesus doesn't have to deal with it.

YankeeGirl said:

I've seen countless Christians of both genders defending the right to date non-Christians or to have premarital sex and then are surprised that Christian marriages don't fare better than secular ones.

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100% agreed that these are bad practices. Unfortunately, it is hard to find someone who hasn't had premarital sex, even if you haven't had it yourself. It is also hard to find someone who is not easily corrupted by her friends, neighbors, and coworkers who do not follow the Lord. It might not happen in a year, but give it 10 years and see where she's at.

Ideally, she would really have that inflappable integrity but that's rare and it doesn't grow in overnight. Second best is she has a community of Christian ladies who have that integrity and hold her accountable. Instead, that community either doesn't exist or is tainted by the Jezebel compromise.

Sketcher said:

The world works very hard to break that restraint down. People blame colleges and universities but that's only part of the picture. People who have never been to college get the same vices and the same worldly values through compromise. Part of it is through the Internet, part of it is through others in the church who have compromised:

"But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works." - Revelation 2:20-23

If we deal with it, Jesus doesn't have to deal with it.


100% agreed that these are bad practices. Unfortunately, it is hard to find someone who hasn't had premarital sex, even if you haven't had it yourself. It is also hard to find someone who is not easily corrupted by her friends, neighbors, and coworkers who do not follow the Lord. It might not happen in a year, but give it 10 years and see where she's at.

Ideally, she would really have that inflappable integrity but that's rare and it doesn't grow in overnight. Second best is she has a community of Christian ladies who have that integrity and hold her accountable. Instead, that community either doesn't exist or is tainted by the Jezebel compromise.

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I agree with you that this is rare. That is why it is more difficult for serious Christians to find partners. We live in a time that Christianity has been influenced by secular society instead of being the light that influences society. It's never been easy to be a true disciple of Christ, but it's in many ways more challenging now given that there are so many worldly pleasures to distract us. There needs to be a return to an emphasis on full submission to Christ and sanctification.

And for many men ( if they sincerely love God) they may not find a suitable wife or it may be years later that they do. They need to view that hardship and the loneliness as a part of their self denial and suffering for the gospel. I realize how hard that is and I don't say that flippantly. I am also trying to live by that rule. I'm 38 and very much desired marriage when I was younger. I had several opportunities to marry, but I walked away from those relationships. I knew they weren't the will of God for me.

I know I haven't been making friends lately in Singles with my posts lol. Especially with the male members However I braved the inevitable backlash I will receive to post in this thread to offer some encouragement. If all of us started to be committed to truly denying ourselves and stopped loving the things of the world, we could change this mess we are in. Especially the men. One of the good attributes of men is that they tend to be natural leaders and more stoic. If Christian men made it their mission to try to reform the modern church and set a good example, it would have such a good impact and it would help guide Christian women to be better too. Ignore the silly women laden with lusts lol. You can't help much there. Focus on living a life that glorifies God. If we all started to do that, we'd be amazed at the changes. We can't expect our marriages to be good if we aren't practicing self denial and striving for holiness. It's too difficult to make a marriage successful if one or both spouses is selfish. We can do better as Christians.

YankeeGirl said:

I agree with you that this is rare. That is why it is more difficult for serious Christians to find partners. We live in a time that Christianity has been influenced by secular society instead of being the light that influences society. It's never been easy to be a true disciple of Christ, but it's in many ways more challenging now given that there are so many worldly pleasures to distract us. There needs to be a return to an emphasis on full submission to Christ and sanctification.

And for many men ( if they sincerely love God) they may not find a suitable wife or it may be years later that they do. They need to view that hardship and the loneliness as a part of their self denial and suffering for the gospel. I realize how hard that is and I don't say that flippantly. I am also trying to live by that rule. I'm 38 and very much desired marriage when I was younger. I had several opportunities to marry, but I walked away from those relationships. I knew they weren't the will of God for me and that the marriage would not be beneficial for me spiritually. It's the cost for following Christ in today's world. I had to let my desires go.

I know I haven't been making friends lately in Singles with my posts lol. Especially with the male members However I braved the inevitable backlash I will receive to post in this thread to offer some encouragement. If all of us started to be committed to truly denying ourselves and stopped loving the things of the world, we could change this mess we are in. Especially the men. One of the good attributes of men is that they tend to be natural leaders and more stoic. If Christian men made it their mission to try to reform the modern church and set a good example, it would have such a good impact and it would help guide Christian women to be better too. Ignore the silly women laden with lusts lol. You can't help much there. Focus on living a life that glorifies God. If we all started to do that, we'd be amazed at the changes. We can't expect our marriages to be good if we aren't practicing self denial and striving for holiness. It's too difficult to make a marriage successful if one or both spouses is selfish. We can do better as Christians.

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Your posts are crucial and need to be read. You aren't a man-hater, and that's clear in your comments. You don't apologize for speaking hard truths, and I hope you never do. It may not feel good to be struck between the eyes with something uncomfortably true, but it's vitally important to make it happen.

TheLastGeek said:

You aren't a man-hater...

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But do you know what she actually is?....

mojoboy31 said:

But do you know what she actually is?....

Spoiler: ......... spoiler......

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https://giphy.com/10KTdhr5Zzq6uA

YankeeGirl said:

They need to view that hardship and the loneliness as a part of their self denial and suffering for the gospel.

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That's definitely a component with me. Having Biblical standards instead of worldly standards for a wife does fit under that broad category, though it will never complete with the threat of my head getting cut off. It doesn't mean that I can't or won't speak against the cultural forces that contribute to the scarcity though. If you don't call out the traps, more people might fall into them.

YankeeGirl said:

I know I haven't been making friends lately in Singles with my posts lol. Especially with the male members However I braved the inevitable backlash I will receive to post in this thread to offer some encouragement.

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You know the analogy about the blind people describing an elephant? You're describing a different part of the elephant. I'm describing another part of the elephant. With that recognition, it doesn't have to feel like backlash.

YankeeGirl said:

If all of us started to be committed to truly denying ourselves and stopped loving the things of the world, we could change this mess we are in. Especially the men. One of the good attributes of men is that they tend to be natural leaders and more stoic. If Christian men made it their mission to try to reform the modern church and set a good example, it would have such a good impact and it would help guide Christian women to be better too.

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That is the good fight, and people wonder why relatively few men feel called to foreign missions. The good fight is right here. I will also tell you that it's easier said than done, because it's fighting decades worth of cultural corruption. The defined victory in this context is to significantly improve the options that single Christians have to find Biblically eligible partners. That's going to be a grind, and I do not expect that I will see any benefit. If things go really, really well, maybe guys my nephew's age will see a benefit at some point in their adult lives. Of course, I hope my nephew won't still be single when he is my age.

YankeeGirl said:

Ignore the silly women laden with lusts lol. You can't help much there. Focus on living a life that glorifies God. If we all started to do that, we'd be amazed at the changes. We can't expect our marriages to be good if we aren't practicing self denial and striving for holiness. It's too difficult to make a marriage successful if one or both spouses is selfish. We can do better as Christians.

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We do need to practice self-denial and strive for holiness. Both sexes need to.