Marks of Carnality

OP asks: What are some of the "indicators" of carnality to you?

Moriah responds: Legalism. Nothing screams carnality more than being enslaved to rules and regulations, and obsessed over issues of "obedience", rather than resting with total faith in God's absolute unconditional love and acceptance as demonstrated through Christ which required nothing on our part to receive nor could anything we did stop Him from pouring it out full measure.

At least "license" (or rather what most people mistakenly term that way) bes Biblical. Scripture states that where sin abounds, grace abounds more (thus you cannot out-sin God's grace and mercy, now THAT bes GOOD news indeed!!). It also states that all things bes lawful unto us even if not all bes expedient. Finally it states that if we bes dead in Christ to the rudiments of the world why do we subject ourselves to its ordinances like "taste not, touch not" which all will perish anyway?

BenAdam said:

The second though is more insidious I believe. When we stop recognizing sin as sin we start to tread a dangerous road.

Thoughts?

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First what exactly do you mean by "carnality"?

Next, about ceasing to recognize sin as sin ... this can get into some dangerous turf indeed, because our understanding and discernment should grow and mature over time, becoming more refined and focused rather than rough and scattered. This might mean our understanding of sin changes as a result. Things we might have considered perfectly fine we may come to find we can no longer feel comfortable with. And likewise -- yes, it works in the other direction, too -- we may come to find out that some things we initially regarded as "sin" or dangerous or whatever only seemed that way because we were embracing a fear-based point of view about our salvation, doing the old typical human thing of trying to be in control with it, like Cain with his basket of fruit.

From personal experience and observation of the experiences of others, I've found it can be far more difficult to process the transition involved in that than to process the transition involved in adding yet another item to our expanding "don't" list. But for my money, walking with Christ should be about discovering things to add to the "DO" list instead.

At any rate, my point here would be that just because the majority regards something as "sin" and the individual comes to a place of disagreement on that does not mean the individual has lost discernment or conscience. They may have outgrown a fearful abreaction to "the big bad world" sufficiently to be able to realize just because some people use hammers to smash windows does not mean the Christian ought to avoid touching them at all. They make pretty good tools, hammers.

So do a lot of other things people get unnecessarily squeamish over.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

OP asks: What are some of the "indicators" of carnality to you?

Moriah responds: Legalism. Nothing screams carnality more than being enslaved to rules and regulations, and obsessed over issues of "obedience", rather than resting with total faith in God's absolute unconditional love and acceptance as demonstrated through Christ which required nothing on our part to receive nor could anything we did stop Him from pouring it out full measure.

At least "license" (or rather what most people mistakenly term that way) bes Biblical. Scripture states that where sin abounds, grace abounds more (thus you cannot out-sin God's grace and mercy, now THAT bes GOOD news indeed!!). It also states that all things bes lawful unto us even if not all bes expedient. Finally it states that if we bes dead in Christ to the rudiments of the world why do we subject ourselves to its ordinances like "taste not, touch not" which all will perish anyway?

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While I do agree with you that legalism (which, in my opinion, means man-made religious traditionalism and / or denominationalism) can get in the hinder the workings of the Holy Spirit in the life of a particular person or an entire congregation, I tend to disagree with you concerning the importance of "obedience". Yes, God's grace is a necessity and without grace we all fall short of the Glory of God however, I feel that in order to achieve continual spiritual growth, obedience MUST follow after grace.

At risk of sounding "legalistic", at least by how I've come to interpret your definition of legalism:

True "repentance" by definition (#1. to regret, to reconsider, to be sorry - AND - #2. to turn from, to walk away) is a two step process. Not only does it require that one confess their sin in order to receive God's grace (by faith) but it also requires that one act upon that faith by abandoning sin at the foot of the cross and following after Christ. ( "Faith without Works [ie. to act upon] is dead.")

However, "Carnality" by definition means #1. "pertaining to the flesh" - OR - #2. "to pursue the desires of the flesh". Essentially, "Carnality" can be interpreted in two ways. #1. To pursue the flesh itself (ie. Sexual Immorality - which, by the way, avoiding Sexual Immorality is a re-occurring theme them throughout New Testament teachings), or "Carnality" can also be defined as #2. To pursue the desires of the flesh (ie. to act out of selfishness).

I believe that by confusing "Legalism" with "Obedience" is a tremendous error and will only serve to hinder your spiritual growth over the course of time. I believe one of the major reasons why the Modern Church, especially in America, no longer experiences major moves of Holy Spirit like we used to and like you currently see taking place in other parts of the world is due to a lack of placing emphasis, thus very little meaningful teaching today, on the concept of "Obedience".

As A.W. Tozer interprets it: "We have become a generation of weak Christians who, by conversion, produce even more weak Christians." In other words, how can we grow spiritually if the truth is not being peached? "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

SentinelNation said:

True "repentance" by definition (#1. to regret, to reconsider, to be sorry - AND - #2. to turn from, to walk away) is a two step process. Not only does it require that one confess their sin in order to receive God's grace (by faith) but it also requires that one act upon that faith by abandoning sin at the foot of the cross and following after Christ. ( "Faith without Works [ie. to act upon] is dead.")

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(1) And unless God gives you repentance you will not repent, period. It depends not on your choices or actions but on His grace, start to finish, entirely.
(2) When you have the power to guarantee that you will never again sin, let's revisit this notion. Until you do, it bes useless. It has been spun all around the mulberry bush with that "abandon your sin" idea. "Lay it down at the cross" but then oops if you happen to stumble then supposedly you willfully "picked it back up again" and must never have meant your repentance, etc. etc. nonsense. No thanks. No more semantic gymnastics pretzel twisting knots and head games. NO thanks.

SentinelNation said:

However, "Carnality" by definition means #1. "pertaining to the flesh" - OR - #2. "to pursue the desires of the flesh". Essentially, "Carnality" can be interpreted in two ways. #1. To pursue the flesh itself (ie. Sexual Immorality - which, by the way, avoiding Sexual Immorality is a re-occurring theme them throughout New Testament teachings), or "Carnality" can also be defined as #2. To pursue the desires of the flesh (ie. to act out of selfishness).

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So carnality bes what then -- to be a christian but be hooked on sex? Sorry, not following your thought-train here.

SentinelNation said:

I believe that ... confusing "Legalism" WITH "Obedience" is a tremendous error and will only serve to hinder your spiritual growth over the course of time.

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Perhaps, but it bes far more preferable to the alternative: mistaking legalism FOR obedience. A subtle difference, but a deadly one. It lost its faith and its soul getting done like that, and it will not rest until it ensures it has done everything within its feeble power to ensure that no one ever gets destroyed beyond repair like that again.

Please talk more with this one. You intrigue it. Not many what opposes it can do so without trying to hurt it. You have not done that. Come closer.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

OP asks: What are some of the "indicators" of carnality to you?

Moriah responds: Legalism. Nothing screams carnality more than being enslaved to rules and regulations, and obsessed over issues of "obedience", rather than resting with total faith in God's absolute unconditional love and acceptance as demonstrated through Christ which required nothing on our part to receive nor could anything we did stop Him from pouring it out full measure.

At least "license" (or rather what most people mistakenly term that way) bes Biblical. Scripture states that where sin abounds, grace abounds more (thus you cannot out-sin God's grace and mercy, now THAT bes GOOD news indeed!!). It also states that all things bes lawful unto us even if not all bes expedient. Finally it states that if we bes dead in Christ to the rudiments of the world why do we subject ourselves to its ordinances like "taste not, touch not" which all will perish anyway?

Click to expand...

I wanted to address the statement that all things are lawful, which is taken from 1st Corinthians.

1st I'd say that legalism is deffinetly a sign of carnality. Legalism is one of the hallmarks of man-made religion. In a sense, both extremes on this issue are the hallmarks of falseness. Legalism, but also indulgence.

Moving on to the all things are lawful statement. I offer this as a general point of explanation.
Paul's letter to the Corinthian Church (1st Corinthians) was written in response to a latter which that Church had sent to him. Paul was writing to answer their letter.
specifically they had written appealing to Paul, hoping he would settle disputes within the Church because the Corinthian Church was being split by divisive factions.

In his answer, Paul sometimes quotes from the letter that the Corinthians had sent him. He quotes sections in which the corinthians were making assertions to justify their actions and then he answers those assertions.

One of these examples is the verse that says "all things are lawful..." Paul is quoting this from the letter that the Corinthians sent to him, and answering this assertion.

You'll see he quotes that a few times, each time answering it with a statement of his own
"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful
"All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything

He goes on to quote other things that they wrote to him and answer them as well
"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food" and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

At the beginning of chapter 7 another section Paul quotes is
"it is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman" and he answers but because of the temptation to sexual immorality each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

in my experience, it's when you're so absorbed in the pleasure of the action that you fail or flat out refuse to acknowledge the damage it's doing to both you and others.

that was my carnal crime, i was so enraptured with the pleasures of the flesh i refused to understand what harm i was doing to not only my mental and spiritual health, but to the health of my family and flesh.

I like "His temple" reference to the body, it gave me a new respect for myself and rather like the idea that it's used to worship Him, not to be personally worshiped, it's encouraged me to be way more selective in who i share it with, monogamy isn't as bad as i once thought it was and i've accepted He doesn't think enjoying the life He gave us is as unforgivable as i've been told for most of my life.

I'd like to try the exact passage, but my memory is really to atrocious to remember much more then the lesson i learned.

If I were a new Christian this conversation would drive me crazy. What is carnality? Several people have asked this question on this thread. The answers given have been wrong, confusing, and really out of order with what the Bible teaches.

First, carnality is a noun not a verb.
Second, the word carnality is not a Bible doctrine. The word carnal, an adjective, is found in the Bible but not carnality. You are inventing a new theological term with the use of carnality that does not come from the Bible but from Satan to confuse people on what the Bible teaches. Proof of this is found in the Book of Revelations, last chapter, where Christ says to make not the smallest change in his message to the churches. To do so makes one in danger of damnation. Do you deny that this small change in the use of God's word is a small change and could make a difference? I will explain more about this when you begin to step up to justify your use of the word carnality. Be careful though that you do not think you are defending God's doctrine. That would be dangerous.

Okay, here are some Greek uses of a similar word:

Romans 7:14
For we know (5758) that the law is (5748) spiritual: but I am (5748) carnal, sold (5772) under sin.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject (5743) to the law of God, neither indeed can be (5736) .

Romans 15:27
For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

1Co 3:1, 3, 4
1Co 9:11
2Co 10:4
Heb 7:16
Heb 9:10

• sa/rc - carnal, carnally minded
• sarkiko/v - carnal


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Carnality

Related to legalism.

I was in a couple conversations this week about systems -- people naturally scrambling to put together predictable systems so they didn't need to lean on God.

We do it with theology.. trying to pinpoint exactly what we believe, and how things should be done.

We do it when we talk about how the Holy Spirit moves through gifts ... wanting to show our expertise and rely on what experiences have taught us.

In almost any part of our lives, we can think of a way that we panicked and organized or cushioned or invented rules for ourselves, to protect us from being vulnerable and taking risks.

The Tower of Babel was about creating a system -- finding a way to get closer to heaven and have more influence over people. Less dependence on God, more dependence on humanity.

Eve eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an attempt to know more about evil and good, presumably so she wouldn't have to rely on God informing her, or experiences from showing her the hard way.

These are subtle points that we can't really argue against, because they also involve good solutions and worthwhile innovations. But the carnality end of it is the fear that drives us to overdo our systems... pack ourselves in tight so nothing can hurt us.

you do realize you all bes in the Electronic Reconstructed Tower of Babel right now at this very moment, don't you ...? What do you imagine the internet to be???

But beyond this the Tower, and Babel, refers to the entire system of human economy and technological efforts toward convenience and leisure. Ever wonder how it can be that we have more gadgets to do work FOR us than ever before and yet LESS time to ourselves to spend as we would rather? We have all become cut off from the system of life that God ordained for us: hunting, gathering, farming. Working the soil and tending the livestock. We leave these jobs up to a select few and immerse ourselves in entertainment and toys and meaningless baubles and empty pursuits of riches, fame, or just more leisure time which we can never seem to find. We have all gone astray from the life ordained by God which consists of eating our bread by the sweat of our brow.

God ordained good labor for our good; we have sought since leaving Eden to escape this, perceiving it to be some type of "punishment" or "menial" thing beneath us. In doing so we have cut ourselves off from dependence upon God because we no longer expose ourselves directly to things like the amount of rain, or the sunlight or wind, or the temperatures or the pestilences or the roving animals, all things we needed God's aid to protect us from and God's wisdom to work around so we could obtain the bread of life by the sweat of our brows. We no longer have connection with nature so we no longer have connection with nature's God -- and it shows. We inhabit quite literally a matrix, an artificial world constructed to keep us "asleep" spiritually and out of touch with the real world where children starve and tsunamis devastate.

And as a result we have created a world system that denies any need for God. Why do we beat our breasts collectively and lament social and political godlessness? We have invoked it upon ourselves by choosing these lifestyles!!! Why do we shake our fingers and criticize the atheist? We have built this city upon his rock and roll, so to speak -- we have ourselves created this world system which by nature, self-contained, proclaims independence from God. Yes, come, let us build a tower what reacheths unto the heavens, and nothing shall stop us, and whatsoever we conceive we shall achieve, indeed.

Wake up people. Armageddon has entered the realm just outside our own. Our next stop, the twilight zone; its next stop, our home.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

OP asks: What are some of the "indicators" of carnality to you?

Moriah responds: Legalism. Nothing screams carnality more than being enslaved to rules and regulations, and obsessed over issues of "obedience", rather than resting with total faith in God's absolute unconditional love and acceptance as demonstrated through Christ which required nothing on our part to receive nor could anything we did stop Him from pouring it out full measure.

At least "license" (or rather what most people mistakenly term that way) bes Biblical. Scripture states that where sin abounds, grace abounds more (thus you cannot out-sin God's grace and mercy, now THAT bes GOOD news indeed!!). It also states that all things bes lawful unto us even if not all bes expedient. Finally it states that if we bes dead in Christ to the rudiments of the world why do we subject ourselves to its ordinances like "taste not, touch not" which all will perish anyway?

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Hey Moriah.

Just because we are under grace certainly doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and then use the "all things are lawful for me but by none will I be mastered by any" arguement.

Grace also means service. If any christian wants to be spiritually blessed, then it'd be wise to do what the Father says. That seeks favor with Him, does it not?

Besides, I recall somewhere in one of the sypnoptic gospels that He asks "why do you call me Lord and yet don't do what I say?"

just leave us alone.

Truth and reality check. <--- just click it!!!

Hello all. I am new here. Is there a difference between carnal and wordly? When a Christian places anything above God, I would think that is carnal. When a Christian acts in the same manner as a non Christian, that would be wordly. There are Christians, (myself included) that have addictions, mine happens to be cigarettes. For whatever reason, probably my own lack of the desire to stop, I have not been delivered from this. The problem that I see is this: I am also addicted to money. Don't get me wrong, I do not cheat, lie, or steal and swindle. What I mean is that I own a 2400 square foot home in an upscale neighborhood. There are 3 of us. That's 800 square feet per person. The home that I grew up in was 800 square feet total and there were 4 of us. Of course now my family maintains the same 'average' lifestyle as our friends. Same goes for our vehicles. Until 15 years ago, I had never owned a brand new car. Now we go and buy $30,000 autos. Usually 2 at the time. My question is: Why? A smaller, less expensive house would work fine, why the large expensive home? 2 Used cars would serve our needs, why the expensive SUV and 4 door pickup, when less expensive vehicles would serve us? PRIDE. Most of us are slaves of it and do not even realize it. That's not freedom, it's bondage. It's carnal AND wordly. As Christians, we have not been tested. When the time comes when we have to choose between God and the world, what are we willing to sacrifice? What I mean is.......are you willing to give up worldy money? A year ago, money was not much of a problem for most people. Each day it gets tougher and tougher to get the bills paid in America. We have become servants to the dollar bill. How many hours a day do we spend tracking finances, looking over our checkbooks, thinking of ways to make more money, or save more money? Think about that. Then, compare the time each day spent in a direct relationship with God. Interacting with Him? For most of us........the difference is great......with money taking the lead. In a nutshell......anything that takes us away from God....is carnel.

Imana said:

Hey Moriah.

Just because we are under grace certainly doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and then use the "all things are lawful for me but by none will I be mastered by any" arguement.

Grace also means service. If any christian wants to be spiritually blessed, then it'd be wise to do what the Father says. That seeks favor with Him, does it not?

Besides, I recall somewhere in one of the sypnoptic gospels that He asks "why do you call me Lord and yet don't do what I say?"

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I would have agreed at one point in my life, now, I don’t know.

If I am in grace, I am absolutely free to do whatever I want. But, If I’m in grace my “want to” changes.

For 40 years I’ve had the cart before the horse.

We are so afraid of anarchy that we put restraints on ourselves and our Christian family. Our desire is to keep everyone “right” and properly under authority.

The problem is:

Rule becomes law,>> law becomes idol,>>idol becomes empowered, >>we become salves to it, >>ultimately we loose upon us bondage and the very thing we wanted to avoid.


I’m all for righteousness, But the law is only there to make us cry out for the Saviour, He saves us by grace in order that He can live through us. It’s all grace or it’s nothing

John O

jeolmstead said:

I would have agreed at one point in my life, now, I don&#8217;t know.

If I am in grace, I am absolutely free to do whatever I want. But, If I&#8217;m in grace my &#8220;want to&#8221; changes.

For 40 years I&#8217;ve had the cart before the horse.

We are so afraid of anarchy that we put restraints on ourselves and our Christian family. Our desire is to keep everyone &#8220;right&#8221; and properly under authority.

The problem is:

Rule becomes law,>> law becomes idol,>>idol becomes empowered, >>we become salves to it, >>ultimately we loose upon us bondage and the very thing we wanted to avoid.


I&#8217;m all for righteousness, But the law is only there to make us cry out for the Saviour, He saves us by grace in order that He can live through us. It&#8217;s all grace or it&#8217;s nothing

John O

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Well, what I said in my other post comes from the book of I Peter, where it teaches about the true meaning of the grace of God in the life of a believer.

According to what the whole of I Peter says, it is in that sense that I said we can't do we what we want. So because we are under grace (rather than the Law, which was something I wasn't even talking about), shouldn't we see to it that we do what is right? Grace is something that is not within our right to take for granted as if we have a right over it and should be automatically given to us. It is because of God's mercy alone that He gives us grace in the first place.

In the other version I have, the Ryuie Study Bible, it says that Grace means security, sobriety, submission, service AND suffering.

jeolmstead said:

I would have agreed at one point in my life, now, I don’t know.

If I am in grace, I am absolutely free to do whatever I want. But, If I’m in grace my “want to” changes.

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Now THAT bes what MORIAH bes talksy bout!!! YEAHAHAHAH!!!!

For 40 years I’ve had the cart before the horse.

We are so afraid of anarchy that we put restraints on ourselves and our Christian family. Our desire is to keep everyone “right” and properly under authority.

The problem is:

Rule becomes law,>> law becomes idol,>>idol becomes empowered, >>we become salves to it, >>ultimately we loose upon us bondage and the very thing we wanted to avoid

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EXACTLY!!!!

I’m all for righteousness, But the law is only there to make us cry out for the Saviour, He saves us by grace in order that He can live through us. It’s all grace or it’s nothing

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Amen and amen and AMEN!!! EXACTLY SO!!!!

All for righteousness -- but it cannot be obtained by human measures of lawkeeping, trying to "obey", etc. When GRACE does its perfect work, one changes from the inside out. It happens (super)naturally ("naturally" in the sense of not being forced, one does not have to "make" it happen because God's Spirit FLOWS IT that way). It won't be faked or forced. God's kingdom does not consist of Dumbo's magic feather lies. it does not consist of naked emperorism, and it definitely does NOT reside in "fake it till you make it" FRUIT BASKETS FROM CAIN!!!

See Moriah seeks a GRACE BASED TRUE MIRACLE DELIVERANCE.
Not a "just pretend you don't have any demons, problems, or sins and then work yourself into a moral straitjacket trying to pretend to the rest of the world you don't have any."
BZZZT sorry, time has run out on that formula. It DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

See Moriah seeks a GRACE BASED TRUE MIRACLE DELIVERANCE.
Not a "just pretend you don't have any demons, problems, or sins and then work yourself into a moral straitjacket trying to pretend to the rest of the world you don't have any."
BZZZT sorry, time has run out on that formula. It DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!

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Jesus told the woman caught in adultery "go and sin no more". Would you consider that a "pretend you don't have any demons, problems, or sins and then work yourself into a moral straitjacket trying to pretend to the rest of the world you don't have any." ministry?

how did she behave afterwards?

if she was truly repentent and changed her ways then she wouldn't be pretending anything, but if she continued on with her path of adultry, consciously addressing the issues that prompted her to the act and correcting them so they wouldn't interfere with His command, her spirit or life; then it was a genuine acceptance of her sin. But if she covered it up with excuses, placed blame on others and denied that the source of the adultry was indeed her own desire...than it would be pretending there's nothing wrong and i think lying to yourself is worse than any act of adultry one may commit.

this has been the most frequent lesson i've had to learn, to stop blaming others for my failures, once i accept them as mine He has more ability to help me correct them, rather than watching me beat my head against a wall angry and blaming others while digging myself deeper into the pit, so to say.