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They are worshiping God and this is and incense offering to God. Our prayers are as incense to the Lord. These Jars are what held the prayer of the saints. Not the Elders. This book reveals heaven to us. It also reveals future events.isnt that exactly what i said? the elders have our prayers .... im not seeing where the confusion is.
Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.
Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship.
God answers all prayers with an either yes, no or later.The confusion comes from your interpretation that the prayers in the verse must be ALL the prayers that human have prayed to God. The prayers to God have been answered if it is part of His plan. If they are not part of His plan then those prayers have NOT been answered. The problem with your argument is fourfold.
Symbolic yes. Hence the actual bringing the bowl of Prayers is substituted for the act of Praying for the behalf of Saints who have prayed to those in Heaven.First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book.
Saints are those who are set apart for God. Saints are everywhere but in the Bible, it always spoke about those on earth when referring to them especially. So the Prayers that those in Heaven are bringing to God, are the Prayers of those Consecrated or set apart for God here on earth.Therefore, if it cannot be conclusively demonstrated who they are, then it cannot be conclusively demonstrated whose prayers they are, either.
Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to be unable to allow those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience.
It's saying they are bringing them to God. They must have received them to bring them to God in the first place. This is not so tough to see here.Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to be prayed to, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted.
Man what site did you copy all this from. Maybe just send the link instead if you are going to copy and paste such a vast amount. Your quotes are all gapped and strange looking which leads me to believe these are not your own words.John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer.
You seem to miss something. Prayers are done through the saints by us asking them to Pray for us too. So what we ask we ALL know will ONLY be done by the Will of God. If I ask the Blessed Mother for intercession, I know She does so according to God. If you ask for my intercession on earth as in for me to pray for you, then you likewise know what you ask, will be done only by God's will and not mine.Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship.
You are limiting God with what you say . We don't limit God. We know that He is self sufficient. He can hear and be everywhere all at once.Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to able those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.
Oh, so then you admit that you do self-interpret? Now, that's refreshing.repentant said:No what you are saying is that because we follow the Traditions of the Church, we don't have independent thinking, and therefore no free will..look at the convo, and tell me that is NOT what are you are trying to say..
I am? Please show me where I am limiting God's power.You are limiting God with what you say . We don't limit God.
Their actions speak loud enough for me.You do not see the elders speaking do you? We see the prayers are in golden bowls. Being offered as and incense offering to My God.
Self interpreting is fine so long as one stays within the Dogmas. You all do this as well (Praying for the Dead is wrong therefor it must mean something else) though you have learned from men who interpretated it first for you.Oh, so then you admit that you do self-interpret? Now, that's refreshing.
The only people who deny "self-interpretation" are Catholics and EOs.Self interpreting is fine so long as one stays within the Dogmas. You all do this as well (Praying for the Dead is wrong therefor it must mean something else) though you have learned from men who interpretated it first for you.
You limit God by assuming that all things have to go through men to get to God. This is just simply not true. Same with what you call self interpretation. You say we have be infallable in our hearing. Making the tradtion the way to interpret scripture. Gods Spirit does not need mens tradtions to open Gods peoples eyes to His word so that we may understand His word. For we see in scripture that when Jesus rose from the dead He opened the eyes of His disciples to understand scripture. For it is the Holy Spirit that reveals scripture to us and not traditions set down from man. This is the limitations you put on God. Just some of them. I could list more.I am? Please show me where I am limiting God's power.
Their actions speak loud enough for me.
And incense offering? Wow.
God answers all prayers with an either yes, no or later.
Just because a prayer is not answered the way you want it answered doesn't mean they go unanswered by God.
Symbolic yes. Hence the actual bringing the bowl of Prayers is substituted for the act of Praying for the behalf of Saints who have prayed to those in Heaven.
Saints are those who are set apart for God. Saints are everywhere but in the Bible, it always spoke about those on earth when referring to them especially. So the Prayers that those in Heaven are bringing to God, are the Prayers of those Consecrated or set apart for God here on earth.
For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12).
"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).
Acts 9:32 "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda"
Acts 26:10 "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons .."
Your doing it again. Limiting God's power to be unable to allow those in Heaven to hear our Prayers as well. As I said before. God wants us all who are supposed to belong to the Body of Christ, to assist one another and there is not one Scripture verse to say it is against God's Will. It is a pious act and will always be whether here or in Heaven.
It's saying they are bringing them to God. They must have received them to bring them to God in the first place. This is not so tough to see here.
Man what site did you copy all this from. Maybe just send the link instead if you are going to copy and paste such a vast amount. Your quotes are all gapped and strange looking which leads me to believe these are not your own words.
And it really makes me laugh when I constantly see people taking verses depicting a negative against bowing to others when that word worship is included as if you're intentionally trying to miss the entire point of what is being said.
You seem to miss something. Prayers are done through the saints by us asking them to Pray for us too. So what we ask we ALL know will ONLY be done by the Will of God. If I ask the Blessed Mother for intercession, I know She does so according to God. If you ask for my intercession on earth as in for me to pray for you, then you likewise know what you ask, will be done only by God's will and not mine.
Wherever you got all this nonsense from, obviously doesn't know what he's talking about or like in most cases, was taught praying to those in Heaven is wrong so likewise will refuse to see it isn't against Scripture when it comes down to it so will twist definitions to suit his situation.
Prayer is not always done in worship. It simply means to ask:
Genesis 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man ?
The only people who deny "self-interpretation" are Catholics and EOs.
That is sad.God gave us the ability to think and free will. Are you saying this is wrong.
You are in fact limiting God by saying that He is incapable of hearing our prayers on his own and therefore, needing a heavenly intercessor, other than Jesus, to make sure that He is reminded or to have more "clout" with Him. That is blatantly unbiblical.
.
How many cults and interpretations have resulted from this splitting the body of Christ into thousands of pieces contradicting the very Scriptures that all true Christians claim to reverence ?
There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.
Martin Luther
The Facts about Luther, 356
God gave us the ability to think and free will. Are you saying this is wrong.
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