Mariology

simonthezealot · Mar 29, 2007

why do fundamentalist have such an issue with the whole Mariology?
Looking for Catholics and Orth. to weigh in

NewToLife · Mar 29, 2007

From an Orthodox point of view there are only 2 Marian dogmas;

1/ That Mary is Theotokos.

2/ Mary was perpetually a virgin.

I think in the case of the first the word mother tends to get conflated with the word creator in some peoples minds leading them to believe that a term that exists wholly to safeguard a Christological point is an attempt to elevate Mary beyond her place.

With the second I think some fundamentalists interpret scripture quite differently than we do which leads to the belief that the perpetual virginity is contrary to scripture rather than supported by scripture.

That is my take on this but really only those concerned know if and why they have a big issue with these things.

simonthezealot · Mar 29, 2007

NewToLife said:
From an Orthodox point of view there are only 2 Marian dogmas;

1/ That Mary is Theotokos.

2/ Mary was perpetually a virgin.

I think in the case of the first the word mother tends to get conflated with the word creator in some peoples minds leading them to believe that a term that exists wholly to safeguard a Christological point is an attempt to elevate Mary beyond her place.

With the second I think some fundamentalists interpret scripture quite differently than we do which leads to the belief that the perpetual virginity is contrary to scripture rather than supported by scripture.

That is my take on this but really only those concerned know if and why they have a big issue with these things.

Thank you NTL, I think finding out why we think differently on these items and trying to empathize tends to close gaps... thanks for your input.

GorrionGris · Mar 31, 2007

I think you should ask a fundamentalist

Lotar · Mar 31, 2007

simonthezealot said:
why do fundamentalist have such an issue with the whole Mariology?
Looking for Catholics and Orth. to weigh in

Satan often attempts to attack the Son by attacking His mother. This illustrated in the Revelation of St. John.

repentant · Mar 31, 2007

You have to notice that 99.9% of the Mary threads are started by Protestants....it seems they like to talk about it...

Mary of Bethany · Mar 31, 2007

I would like to put some of this in perspective.

The focus in here is on Mary, the Theotokos. But in Orthodoxy, *all* of the Saints are hymned and praised. It isn't just Mary, by a longshot! Every day of the year, every service held in an Orthodox church, a Saint is remembered and honored. We sing hymns that teach something about the Saint's life and death. We remember him/her in the prayers, and ask their intercession for us. We hold the Theotokos to be "the chief of Saints", true, but we hold *all* of the Saints in great honor, and our hymns about them are just as "flowery" and "over the top" (from the protestant pov ) as the ones to the Theotokos.

Mary

Benedicta00 · Mar 31, 2007

Mary,

This is also the practice and belief of the Catholic Church to.

Benedicta00 · Mar 31, 2007

why do fundamentalist have such an issue with the whole Mariology?
Looking for Catholics and Orth. to weigh in

Because this is what your fundamentalist tradition of men has taught you.

fundamentalism tells you it's wrong and for some reason... you believe it.

simonthezealot · Apr 2, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
fundamentalism tells you it's wrong and for some reason... .

Care to take a stab at why/how we are told it is wrong?

Benedicta00 · Apr 2, 2007

simonthezealot said:
Care to take a stab at why/how we are told it is wrong?

You go and sit in church and/or bible study and someone opens the bible and begins preaching how Marian devotion is wrong.

Tell me that's never happened? I've been to a few Protestant gatherings where this has happened.

simonthezealot · Apr 2, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
You go and sit in church and/or bible study and someone opens the bible and begins preaching how Marian devotion is wrong.

Tell me that's never happened? I've been to a few Protestant gatherings where this has happened.

NOT 1 single time in my entire life!

HisBelovedMelody · Apr 2, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
You go and sit in church and/or bible study and someone opens the bible and begins preaching how Marian devotion is wrong.

Tell me that's never happened? I've been to a few Protestant gatherings where this has happened.

NOT EVEN once....BENE, that was mean, sarcastic and totally uncalled for.

Benedicta00 · Apr 2, 2007

simonthezealot said:
NOT 1 single time in my entire life!

It's happened when I went to the Assembly of God church on Elysian Fields Ave. in New Orleans LA. Which is no longer there thanks to Katrina.

I also heard this at a bible study given by a lady named miss Joy (God rest her now) at a independent non denominational church called "Celebration."

Consider yourself lucky if you've never been to a church where all the pastor does is rag on Catholic beliefs.

Rdr Iakovos · Apr 2, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
You go and sit in church and/or bible study and someone opens the bible and begins preaching how Marian devotion is wrong.

Tell me that's never happened? I've been to a few Protestant gatherings where this has happened.

There is a Fundamentalist Baptist chuch in Superior, Wi, just across the bridge from my Duluth, Mn home, where the marquee has one anti Catholic, anti Marian slogan week after week.
I found in my 15 years as an Evangelical an even split between those who appreciate Catholics and those who just hate on them.

simonthezealot · Apr 2, 2007

Rdr Iakovos said:
There is a Fundamentalist Baptist chuch in Superior, Wi, just across the bridge from my Duluth, Mn home, where the marquee has one anti Catholic, anti Marian slogan week after week.
I found in my 15 years as an Evangelical an even split between those who appreciate Catholics and those who just hate on them.

How come you guys will not come to the understanding that, we fundies as we are called are not anti-catholic we are actually just frustrated with seeing anyone give anything (reverence,adoration,veneration,worship) to anyone! because TO US it interferes with our true and pure devotion to our Saviour and Creator.

My POV.......

Rhamiel · Apr 2, 2007

I think fundamentalist have problems with Marian Dogma because of how close the all Christian traditions are very close to each other, so the focus is on the differences instead of the commonalities. Could also be the masculine nature of fundamentalism is just kind of turned off by the femininity of Mary. Could just be a way of distinguishing yourselves from the Catholic Church, but this only explains how it started because a lot of fundamentalist churches are not in Catholic areas (but then again a lot of them are).
Also the role of Tradition would really be unattractive to fundamentalists (right?)
Simon you mention that you do not like seeing the Blessed Mother receive adoration, that makes sense because you see it as creature worship, so I guess socialization plays a big part in this whole thing. I was always taught that there was a big difference between the prayers to Mary and prayers to God. As a fundamentalist you just have prayer right? So creatures getting prayer would seem evil.
I dunno these are my thoughts, take them for what they are. Oh and Simon, it was very nice to see you make this thread, I think this could be a good place to talk some stuff out.

Rdr Iakovos · Apr 2, 2007

simonthezealot said:
How come you guys will not come to the understanding that, we fundies as we are called are not anti-catholic we are actually just frustrated with seeing anyone give anything(reverence,adoration,veneration,worship) to anyone! because TO US it interferes with our true and pure devotion to our Saviour and Creator.

So let me see if I get this right:
There is a marquee available, upon which glories and high praises might be written to God. Instead, words are written which condemn the practices of the Catholics.

NOT a message of reconciliation, reconciling man with God, NOT glad tidings of great joy, but the airing of dity laundry before a world who does not understand the nuances which so offend the Fundamentalist sensibility.

I don't recall seeing a diatribes against "fundies" on Catholic placards or marquees.

How exactly does what Catholics do interfere with YOUR devotion? Answer: it doesn't

I'm sorry, this just don't wash.

Benedicta00 · Apr 2, 2007

simonthezealot said:
How come you guys will not come to the understanding that, we fundies as we are called are not anti-catholic we are actually just frustrated with seeing anyone give anything(reverence,adoration,veneration,worship) to anyone! because TO US it interferes with our true and pure devotion to our Saviour and Creator.

Oh they were nice about it. They didn't think they were anti Catholic, just out to save the world from "false" Catholic doctrine. They begin preaching like this:

The Catholics do this...

The Catholics do that...

The Catholics believe this...

The Catholics believe that...

The Catholics says this...

The Catholics say that...

But we know what the bible says!

Iollain · Apr 2, 2007

Hate to burst your bubble, but the churches i've been to do not mention the RCC, they are stuck on Scripture and really do not know what you teach. Just like when i first came here, everything just rang bells as in Scripture verses, then i was told to go look into the RCC, so i did. And i still hear those bells going off .....i read this........i know for a fact that there is Scripture that disagrees. I know for a fact that Jesus is who the Bible says He is, God is our hope, our salvation, who we run to.

Mariology

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