Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

Albion · Oct 31, 2014

Rhamiel said:
could we say the same thing about Secularism?

lol or am I getting too far off topic?

Secularism. Hmmm. How does Secularism promote or defend religious liberty? And where has it done so?

Rhamiel · Oct 31, 2014

Albion said:
If you've got it, you can thank Protestantism for it. And that's no myth.

.

Rhamiel said:
could we say the same thing about Secularism?

lol or am I getting too far off topic?

Albion said:
Secularism. Hmmm. How does Secularism promote or defend religious liberty? And where has it done so?

you said that if you had Religious Liberty, you can thank Protestantism for it.

my comment was that we can also "thank" Protestantism for Secularist mindsets

Albion · Oct 31, 2014

Rhamiel said:
you said that if you had Religious Liberty, you can thank Protestantism for it.

my comment was that we can also "thank" Protestantism for Secularist mindsets

Oh, dear. I read your comment entirely wrong. I think you're mistaken about that point because it's more like both of them owe something to the Enlightenment. But I did still misread your post.

Marvin Knox · Oct 31, 2014

Rhamiel said:
"simple" does not mean true

Don't be ridiculous.
No one said that it does.

Rhamiel said:
we can look at Universalism as very simple, that does not make it correct

No one mentioned Universalism.

Being "simple" isn't what makes the gospel true. Being the Word of God is what makes it true.

If the Word of God had told me to call a bunch of priests "Father" instead of telling me not to call them Father - that is what I would believe and do.

If the Word of God told me that a specially trained priest had the power to say "Hoc est corpus meum" (hucus-pocus) and change a piece of bread into the body of the resurrected Christ - that is what I would believe.

Simplicity of the gospel isn't the point. People adding to that simplicity to the point that the gospel is no longer understandable is the point.

Marvin Knox · Oct 31, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
I see nothing but hate here, therefore I dispute you've grasped the Gospel.

You see no such thing from me.
What you see is someone who cares enough for your soul to tell you the truth in love.

Marvin Knox · Oct 31, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
Abuse is abuse...your misguided snark notwithstanding.

There is no central organization which claims to be "Protestantism".
If you named the individual body originating any particular atrocity, I would be glad to comment on the wrongness of it.

The very concept of Catholicism is that the Roman church is the universal church. Therefore I condemn the Roman church for the atrocities done by it's representatives.

It's really not rocket science.

Marvin Knox · Oct 31, 2014

tadoflamb said:
I fear Marvin Knox has tipped his protestant hand

Don't fear!
You haven's discovered something new.
There is no "secret" hand for me to tip.
I've been up front with where I come from from the beginning of these posts.

justinangel · Nov 1, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
I'm not sure what it is that you want - photographic evidence of the atrocities of the inquisition and the Reformation? Admission by your leadership isn't enough?

At the time the Inquisition was formed, heresy was a capital offense against the state - not the Church - punishable by death. In the early middle ages, anyone accused of heresy was arrested and brought before the lord to be tried and judged, since heresy was regarded as an act of treason against God, king, and country. The secular authorities had performed countless unjust executions, and so the Catholic Church formed the Inquisition to stop them. The Church did not perceive heretics as traitors, but rather as lost and misguided sheep. The Inquisition stepped in to provide a means for the heretics to avoid facing the secular court of law and the death penalty by encouraging them to renounce their errors, repent of their sins, and do penance. Under state law, the Church had no choice but to hand the recalcitrant heretics over to the secular authorities who disregarded the laws of evidence and lacked sufficient theological knowledge and training. Hence, heretics were burnt at the stake by the state, not by the Church. Meanwhile the Inquisition, whose primary concern was saving souls from the second death, did in fact save many people from being sentenced to death by secular judges. That the Inquisition burned heretics at the stake is a myth that has originated from the false propaganda of Protestants during the time Spain was at war with countries ruled by Protestants.

I've shown you where your church's doctrine clearly pronounces a curse on their people if they profess salvation only through a private relationship with God through the "finished" work of Christ.

You've said enough, but you haven't really shown anything.

Man's radical thirst for individualism started at the time of the rise of the Protestant movement. Our relationship with God the Father isn't as private and individualistic or passive as you think it is as opposed to the faith of historic Christianity. I've already provided scriptural passages from the NT to show how erroneous your understanding of Scripture is. But you choose to ignore them.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

Part 1. The Profession of Faith

Section 2. The Profession of the Christian Faith

Article 9. "I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church."

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." 5i3 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
John 14, 12

We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 8, 28

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1 Corinthians 3, 9

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Colossians 1, 24

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2, 10

Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.
Philippians 1, 19-20

And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2, 5

Millions are forbidden under threat of those kinds of curses to personally trust in Christ without an association with the Catholic Church.

I've given you the example of Mother Theresa herself as an example of someone very much in bondage to the system and unable to extricate herself no matter what kind of works she did in her life.

If good works done in sanctifying grace are unnecessary for personally attaining salvation, initially gained for the entire world by the merits of Christ, then how can Paul say that individuals are "saved", not merely rewarded, through fire by a judgement of their works?

If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3, 15

Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
Romans 2, 4-11

The "simple" truth is that God shall judge each human being according to their works which are done by cooperating with divine grace. Our good works done in charity and sanctifying grace justify and save us. The fury of God's justice shall be applied to unrepentant evil doers, who spurned God's grace, on the Day of Judgement notwithstanding the ransom Christ paid for the whole world with his blood.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
2 Corinthians 5, 10

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Philippians 2, 12-13

Mother Theresa is saved by what she has done in the body, not merely by having placed her faith in the merits of Christ's redemptive work. Her charity and self-sacrifice were true expressions of what having faith really means. With fear and trembling she worked out her own salvation by collaborating with the Holy Spirit. She did not receive God's grace in vain. And so the salvation Christ had gained for her by the merits of his redemptive work should be applied to her soul. Our good works done in charity and grace are instrumental to attaining the salvation which Christ has formally achieved for us. Thus by abiding by the teachings of the Apostolic Catholic Church, we are freed from the bondage of sin and death.

When you threaten your people with Hell and purgatory if they stray from your practices and approach God and apprehend salvation on their own between Him and them through Christ - THAT KEEPS THEM IN BONDAGE.

The souls in Purgatory are saved and destined for heaven. And there are probably more Protestants there than there are Catholics because they relied much less on the merits of their good works as they should have to be saved. If Purgatory didn't exist, there would be far less souls in Heaven. And if the merits of Christ were as all sufficient as you make them out to be, then there should be not one soul in Hell.

You and your "church" believe that the good news is the work of Christ plus the administration of that work by a select group of special Christians. Without that administration - there can be no salvation. To say and act otherwise is to be cursed to hell by that organization.

There was no such thing as your church and my church for the first one thousand years. That's because Jesus intended to establish one visible and hierarchical Church with a central ruling authority on Peter and the Apostles so we can be of one mind in faith as Jesus and the Father are one (cf. Jn 17:20-23). What the Catholic Church means by "No salvation outside the Church" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is explained very well in the following article by Jim Blackburn, of Catholic Answers.

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers

PAX

xTx · Nov 5, 2014

Albion said:
The Flat Earth Society agrees with you, I'm sure.

Yikes. You stung me.

Did you missed my point? I said -

The Roman Catholic Church has been testing spirits for more than two thousands years. Who are we to question her wisdom?

In that context I wrote

Marian apparitions are for real if approved by the Roman Catholic Church.

And, for that I received a stinger! Hey no fair.

That is too much. Boo you.

I demand an apology

For the betterment of everybody on this thread - I suggest that you hug a koala to make you feel better

I would post an image of a cute koala for you to hug but I forgot how to post pictures here.

Somebody please help help help (echos) ha ha

Albion · Nov 5, 2014

xTx said:
Yikes. You stung me.

Did you missed my point? I said -

"Marian apparitions are for real if approved by the Roman Catholic Church."

Think about it. That's really not much of an argument. The only church that says they're real is the only church that benefits from telling us that they are real.

bbbbbbb · Nov 5, 2014

Albion said:
Think about it. That's really not much of an argument. The only church that says they're real is the only church that benefits from telling us that they are real.

Would this also happen to be the same church that establishes truth because it establishes the truth that it alone is capable of establishing truth?

MKJ · Nov 5, 2014

You know, the RCC doesn't actually say that particular apparitions are real. they say that they aren't saying or teaching anything that is inconsistent with Christian faith.

Someone could have a vision brought on by some psychological or even physical situation that taught perfectly in accord with Christianity, and the Church could still say that it was in accord with the faith, but that wouldn't mean it was really caused by a visitation of Mary or anyone else.

tadoflamb · Nov 5, 2014

MKJ said:
You know, the RCC doesn't actually say that particular apparitions are real. they say that they aren't saying or teaching anything that is inconsistent with Christian faith.

Someone could have a vision brought on by some psychological or even physical situation that taught perfectly in accord with Christianity, and the Church could still say that it was in accord with the faith, but that wouldn't mean it was really caused by a visitation of Mary or anyone else.

Private revelations need to be consistent with the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the 2000 year teaching magisterium of the Church in order to be consider valid no matter the source. This why pretty much every private revelation presented by non-Catholics can readily be dismissed.

That said, I'm still making my pilgrimage to Lourdes next month. Nothing that has been presented thus far has convinced me the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary has been anything else than what the Church says it was.

St. Bernadette, ora pro nobis!

justinangel · Nov 5, 2014

Albion said:
I can't give that notion much credence since Decartes was a Catholic, he used a systematic doubt to arrive at a truth that the RCC itself supports, and because he came later in history than the Protestant Reformation.

What I wrote was that "Protestantism became even more fragmented than it had been before" Descartes's time. And what I implied was that the subjectivism and scepticism accorded to Descartes's methodical doubt affected the Protestant rationale. Meanwhile the Catholic Church has always condemned any system of thought that opposes her objective teaching authority. What has been objectively revealed in the deposit of faith - Scripture and Tradition - is not a matter of private judgment or personal experience. The Catholic Church may have welcomed Descartes's views in the sphere of natural philosophy, but faithful Catholic theologians have never been influenced by them in their inquiries on divine revelation. Rather they have humbly owned that as individuals they are not competent arbiters of the divine truth. This objective truth can only be received by the corporate entity which is the Church under the teaching and governing authority of the magisterium. That being said, the Catholic Church does thoroughly investigate every claim of private revelation, understanding full well in agreement with Descartes that our senses are an unreliable means for obtaining the objective truth. Bernadette could not know with certainty that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself had appeared to her at the grotto in Lourdes with the certainty the Church has in her immaculate conception and assumption into Heaven.

PAX

Albion · Nov 5, 2014

justinangel said:
What I wrote was that "Protestantism became even more fragmented than it had been before" Descartes's time. And what I implied was that the subjectivism and scepticism accorded to Descartes's methodical doubt affected the Protestant rationale.

Got any evidence to support that theory?

This objective truth can only be received by the corporate entity which is the Church under the teaching and governing authority of the magisterium.

Another theory that's just received on faith. The claims of the next sect have equal credibility.

Bernadette could not know with certainty that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself had appeared to her at the grotto in Lourdes

So you're saying we also have no reason to tconclude that this "apparition" is real.

xTx · Nov 6, 2014

tadoflamb said:
Private revelations need to be consistent with the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the 2000 year teaching magisterium of the Church in order to be consider valid no matter the source. This why pretty much every private revelation presented by non-Catholics can readily be dismissed.

That said, I'm still making my pilgrimage to Lourdes next month. Nothing that has been presented thus far has convinced me the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary has been anything else than what the Church says it was.

St. Bernadette, ora pro nobis!

You are so blessed Tado, have a lovely pilgrimage.

Let me know if after you had the dip, did you come up wet or dry.

xTx · Nov 6, 2014

xTx · Nov 6, 2014

justinangel said:
What I wrote was that "Protestantism became even more fragmented than it had been before" Descartes's time. And what I implied was that the subjectivism and scepticism accorded to Descartes's methodical doubt affected the Protestant rationale. Meanwhile the Catholic Church has always condemned any system of thought that opposes her objective teaching authority. What has been objectively revealed in the deposit of faith - Scripture and Tradition - is not a matter of private judgment or personal experience. The Catholic Church may have welcomed Descartes's views in the sphere of natural philosophy, but faithful Catholic theologians have never been influenced by them in their inquiries on divine revelation. Rather they have humbly owned that as individuals they are not competent arbiters of the divine truth. This objective truth can only be received by the corporate entity which is the Church under the teaching and governing authority of the magisterium. That being said, the Catholic Church does thoroughly investigate every claim of private revelation, understanding full well in agreement with Descartes that our senses are an unreliable means for obtaining the objective truth. Bernadette could not know with certainty that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself had appeared to her at the grotto in Lourdes with the certainty the Church has in her immaculate conception and assumption into Heaven.

PAX

Well said

xTx · Nov 6, 2014

Albion said:
Think about it. That's really not much of an argument. The only church that says they're real is the only church that benefits from telling us that they are real.

What are you talking about?

Albion · Nov 6, 2014

xTx said:
What are you talking about?

What I "am talking about" is just this--

It's no argument at all to say that an idea is true simply because some organization that stands to benefit from having people think it is true says it is.

And that's what you did. See here:

xTx said:
Did you missed my point? I said -

"Marian apparitions are for real if approved by the Roman Catholic Church."

Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

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