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Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

justinangel

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So if it's the credibility of the Catholic Church that puts the authenticity of Marian apparitions into question, how is it you are confident that the books and letters in your Bible are genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit? How is it that God could sanction the canon of Scripture which lends credence to the Catholic Church whose magisterium "distorts the gospel message and masks the truth"?

PAX
 
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Marvin Knox

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I do not believe that the canon of Scripture, whatever method God used to assure it’s continuance, lends credence to the Catholic Church. God often uses the base things of this world to establish the holy. He used the sins of men to provide salvation and He can use an unholy institution to establish and protect His word.


I do not believe that the Scriptures lend credence to all of the doctrines Catholic church. To the contrary -as in the Reformation - it is the pure milk of the Word that brings to light the egregious nature of some of the doctrines of the Catholic church. That is why the Catholic church tried so hard to suppress it. If they had had their way - you wouldn't be able to study the Scriptures in your own language in order to make an argument one way or the other.


And, yes, I believe by faith that the canon of Scripture is the Word of God.
 
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Albion

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justinangel;66531547How is it that God could sanction the canon of Scripture which lends credence to the Catholic Church whose magisterium "distorts the gospel message and masks the truth[/QUOTE said:
Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple.
 
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Marvin Knox

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We could all argue particulars until the Lord returns and not agree. To me the bottom line argument has to come down to something like the question I always pose to the Mormons who come to my door.

You believe that the traditions of your church are to be considered along with the original Scriptures. Fine – we can agree to disagree.

But the question it seems to me is whether the additional layers of belief and practice change the original revelation we have in Scripture in any appreciable way. If one believes that it takes a certain thing and only that thing to be saved- after reading only the Scriptures – is that message distorted or changed appreciably after adding traditions? If the message is changed – it seems wise to return to the original and stay with it. Our life depends on the message once delivered to the saints. There is too much at stake to let anyone tinker with it after it was delivered.

The Mormon way of salvation ends up distorted and added to. The J.W. way of salvation ends up distorted and added to. The Roman Catholic way of salvation ends up distorted and added to.

We all believe that God delivered the original message through His prophets and apostles. We do not all agree as to the other layers of tradition and interpretations by special people.

Wisdom dictates that we stay with the original. I have cast my lot with the prophet’s, Apostle’s, and disciple’s writings as brought to light through my relationship with the Holy Spirit. If you pick some additional material that distorts and changes the simple message of the original – good luck with that.

The reformer staked their lives on trying to see exactly what the core of the salvation message was without tradition added. It seems to me that they were remarkably uniform in their rejection of Roman Catholic traditions that had been added.

Marian appearances seem to only add credence to those things rejected by the reformers.

Add the Mary stuff if you want to. Add priests and Popes if you want to. I’m going to stake my future on a personal communication with God that I rest in the finished work of Jesus on the cross for my salvation – once for all.

I hope and pray that I will see you all on the other side. But some of your choices just don’t seem to be wise to me.
 
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justinangel

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I suppose Jesus wasn't telling the truth when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church (cf. Mt 16:18) or that he would send the Holy Spirit to be with his Church "forever" and guide her "in all truth" (cf. Jn 14:16, 26; 16:12-13). How can the Church be an unholy institution if the Holy Spirit is with her? There was but one visible church and unified body when Paul described her as "the unblemished bride of Christ". This is the same visible and hierarchical church in which the Church Fathers belonged.

"We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the 'pillar and ground of truth'; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, 'Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.'"
Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244)



"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110)

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110)

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 165)

"The bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200)


The Bishop of Antioch was a disciple of the apostle John. All Catholic doctrines, including the Real Presence, are rooted in the teachings of the apostles (cf. Jn 6:22-59). So I find it hard to believe that they are conspicuously erroneous as you regard them to be by your understanding of the Scriptures. The Catholic Church has existed since Pentecost in apostolic time. The Holy Spirit descended on the apostles so that the Church, as promised by our Lord, would be guided in all truth in matters of faith and morals. So it does appear that the Blessed Virgin Mary's appearances in the Catholic Church confirm that it is the one holy and apostolic Church founded by Christ. For this reason, I believe, many Protestants dismiss them as demonic. Anyway, the religious academicians of the 16th century didn't reform anything, but rather created a visible division in Christendom with the endless rise of independent and autonomous denominations (cf. Mt 12:30). And I doubt that our Lord waited 16 centuries to correct and enlighten Christendom with the divine truth after being entirely on its own all this time (cf. Jn 14:18).

And, yes, I believe by faith that the canon of Scripture is the Word of God.

If God has been faithful in the transmission of His written word (Scripture), then I'm sure he has been faithful in the transmission of His unwritten word (Tradition) through the Catholic Church. Thus if you faithfully believe that the canon of Scripture is genuine, then you must put your faith in the Catholic Church. You wouldn't have your Bible if it weren't for the magisterium of the Church. Moreover, the Scriptures you read must be read in light of sacred Tradition, from which the meaning of Scripture proceeds. I know you think that God used this wicked institution to deliver the Bible to every doorstep so that each and every one of us should be enlightened by His true word. But when Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my Church," he didn't mean that he would establish his church for the production of the Bible and then abandon her.

PAX
 
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justinangel

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Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple.

If the magisterium is as fallible as you believe it is, then how can you be sure that your Bible has God for its author? Did a little birdie tell you so?

And don't tell me that the Scriptures speak for themselves. The Didache can just as well attest to itself by its contents.


PAX
 
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Defensor Christi

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You...again, are proving my point...you seem to believe (as to most Protestants) that their personal interpretation is correct because they are led by the Holy Spirit...the fact that you bring up Mormons is exactly what I am talking about!!! So you believe you, Mr Moe, are the keeper of the truth because you were led by the spirit...Psssssttttt...so does every protestant.




mrmoe said:

Yes, man oh man, did you show me...LOL, you showed me that (as you are doing again) reason does not matter to you, proof does not matter to you...you proved that you horang someone until they throw in the towel...the same thing happened to me when talking to JW's, at the point where they continue to repeat the same thing (see below) over and again...my patience wears thin...ala, your link.


mrmoe said:
I'm not a Catholic and there are no Catholic churches where I live but from what I've read from Catholic websites about Mortal sins that it would be a yes.

Must be a pretty remote location to not have a Catholic Church close enough...




mrmoe=Well here's the full text if you ever fell like reading through it. [URL="http://archive.org/stream/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft_djvu.txt" said:
Full text of "The glories of Mary"[/url]

What of it?





How can Satan's ministers transform into ministers of righteousness?




Why do you think?
 
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Defensor Christi

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Here is a fact...you create argument without substatinated proof, that deserves LOL...That is a fact.

Now, until you provide something for me to discuss, other than your clear bias toward the Catholic Church, I will continue to "LOL" at your feeble comments...that TOO is fact.
 
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MrMoe

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You...again, are proving my point...you seem to believe (as to most Protestants) that their personal interpretation is correct because they are led by the Holy Spirit...the fact that you bring up Mormons is exactly what I am talking about!!!


You did not read what I wrote properly. I said Mormons have church leaders ordained by God from which the holy spirit reveals truth through. Any private interpretation or criticism of the church's interpretation is condemned, same as the Catholic church.

4Witness » Blog Archive » Can we personally interpret Scripture? – 2 Peter 1:20

There is no personal interpretation in Mormonism.

 
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Albion

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If the magisterium is as fallible as you believe it is, then how can you be sure that your Bible has God for its author? Did a little birdie tell you so?
It certainly isn't because some bishop in Burma or South Africa is assumed (but not known) to agree with every other bishop in the world on some doctrinal point. To claim that every one of them does agree is not only unscriptural and a presumption, but demonstrably untrue as well. That there might be infallibility involved is nothing but a claim.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Originally Posted by marvin knox
The official stance of your organization is to pronounce a curse on anyone who professes simple faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s accomplishments at Calvary and who will not subscribe to and participate in the dogma of Rome. That is a fact.

Thousands of believers have died screaming on a burning stake while their family watched and cried and your priests held up wooden crosses and chanted Latin phrases. Their only crime was to translate the Bible into their own language or profess a simple faith in the accomplishments of Christ on their behalf. That is a fact.
Regarding the first paragraph I wrote - The Council of Trent documents are available for anyone to look at.

Every Pope since the time of their determination has sanctioned the findings and curses of Trent.

The determinations of Vatican I and Vatican II are in print. Their official sanction of all the curses pronounce by the Council of Trent is a matter of record.

If you are waiting for me to reproduce these documents here in the forum you are in for a long wait.

Regarding my second statement. These atrocities are a matter of historical record. They were born witness to by thousands in and out of the Catholic church.

The fact of these atrocities has been acknowledged by Pope John Paul among most other modern Catholic leaders as well as the Popes in power at the time of the atrocities. Take it up with them.

Are you also a 911 "truther" and a Holocaust denier?

Regarding my bias toward the Catholic church. You can bet your life on it.
 
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Rhamiel

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this thread is fun

it is good to know that if I disagree with the theology of some group, I can just ignore everything they have to say

like how people are saying that Marian apperitions can not be real because God would not encourage Catholics to be better Catholics

so now whenever a Protestant talks about how they felt the grace of Christ working inside them, I can just assume it was fake and Christ was not really doing that....

(note, this is sarcasm, I am just pointing out that if Catholics did speak like that, you all would be hooting a howling with rightous indignation, wailing about how dare we judge you and all that jazz)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Albion
Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple.
Sounds like the makings of another thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483551/
The Authority of the Church: Word and Magisterium

 
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Marvin Knox

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this thread is fun
it is good to know that if I disagree with the theology of some group, I can just ignore everything they have to say
I'm glad people are having fun. But I also hope we all realize that these discussions are deadly serious as well.

I'm not sure what you meant by ignoring every one with whom we disagree. But I for one am absolutely not doing that. I originally simply threw my opinion into the mix concerning what people thought of the apperitions. But since people have a lot to say about what I said - I am answering every post directed to me very directly and openly.
people are saying that Marian apperitions can not be real because God would not encourage Catholics to be better Catholics
I hope the person you refer to isn't me. I have never said that they cannot be real. What I have said is that it seems highly unlikely to me as a Protestant that God would sanction these appearances.
so now whenever a Protestant talks about how they felt the grace of Christ working inside them, I can just assume it was fake and Christ was not really doing that....
Again - I hope you are not referring to my assumptions. I have never accused anyone of faking anything. I listed what I considered to be 3 main possibilities (among which was people faking them).

We are not talking about Catholic's or Protestant's feelings about grace working through them. We are not talking about personal feelings or interactions with the Holy Spirit.

We are talking about public appearances of an entity who identifies itself as the Virgin Mary. We are talking about appearances by this entity which have been officially recognized in many cases by the Catholic church. We are talking about thousands of Christians who have a devotion to this entity that rivals and in many cases exceeds their zeal for our Lord Himself. We are talking about an entity who establishes itself as an intercessor between our selves and the Lord.

Again, far from ignoring these visions and the differing opinions of others, I am spending a great deal of time interacting with my fellow Christians concerning them. No Spirit led Christian could ignore something this serious.

I have spent much of my life considering the views of others from other religious backgrounds. That includes those from Catholicism as well as many religions including Islam.

Obviously for anyone here to consider my beliefs would require revisiting the Reformation principles. My hope would be that many would see the light as the reformers saw it. I'm not so foolish as to believe that many would. But - if one wants to consider my views on the supposed appearances of Mary (as I have considered others) - a Scripture based Reformation study is definitely in order.

I personally hope that the tent of doctrine is so large that we will all find our way to Heaven whether we be Catholic or Protestant. Time will tell I suppose.

(I, myself, don't plan on spending a couple of thousand years in purgatory before I find out though.)
 
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DarylFawcett

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MOD HAT ON!!!!!

This is a notice to focus your posts on the thread topic and not just argue over the thread topic and to also stay on topic.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!
 
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concretecamper

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I am reading a book right now on the role of Mary in the life of a priest and came across this quote and it is rather appropriate given the current path this thread has been taken down.

"The great enemy of the virtue of obedience is grumbling. Grumbling is the compensation which self love resorts to in its powerlessness in the face of authority. It is a compensation which is often unworthy"
 
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justinangel

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We are talking about thousands of Christians who have a devotion to this entity that rivals and in many cases exceeds their zeal for our Lord Himself.

How would you know that? Did Jesus appear to you to warn us?

We are talking about an entity who establishes itself as an intercessor between our selves and the Lord.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
Revelation 1, 6

PAX





 
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Albion

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Sounds like the makings of another thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483551/
The Authority of the Church: Word and Magisterium

It's true. We can't agree to these spook stories just because some denomination--any denomination--says to. And as for the
"Word and Mageiterium," the Word doesn't say anything about these particular events and the Magesterium is just a concept without any real authority.
 
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justinangel

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Then we'll never know for sure with the certainty of faith whether the quadriform gospels have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, will we?

PAX
 
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Albion

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Then we'll never know for sure with the certainty of faith whether the quadriform gospels have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, will we?
You seem awfully anxious to change the subject. Why not address the problem of knowing what the Magisterium says and doesn't say, how we'd know, and where the idea comes from that if there did happen to be uniformity that this somehow makes their opinion infallible?
 
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