Mandatory beliefs...

[FlipFlopHead]

What dogmas are "binding", so to speak, on Orthodox believers? I am not Orthodox, but to my knowledge I am in full agreement with the Seven Councils. I have some peculiar beliefs and I am wondering if they would necessarily exclude me from the ranks of Orthodoxy.

-Tendency to view original sin as inherited guilt
-"Augustinian" view of predestination
-Uncertainty over Mary's perpetual virginity

So... do any of you know of Orthodox Christians who hold to a more "Western" understanding of salvation (i.e. Augustinian/Thomist) or who struggle with Marian issues?

Thanks!

 

[Iacobus]

What dogmas are "binding", so to speak, on Orthodox believers? I am not Orthodox, but to my knowledge I am in full agreement with the Seven Councils. I have some peculiar beliefs and I am wondering if they would necessarily exclude me from the ranks of Orthodoxy.

-Tendency to view original sin as inherited guilt
-"Augustinian" view of predestination
-Uncertainty over Mary's perpetual virginity

So... do any of you know of Orthodox Christians who hold to a more "Western" understanding of salvation (i.e. Augustinian/Thomist) or who struggle with Marian issues?

Thanks!

The things you mentioned are, by and large, at odds with Orthodoxy. At the same time, I think just about all of us on this board -- at least the converts -- struggled with these or similar issues. In the end, to truly be Orthodox you need to adopt the mind of the Church, but getting to that point is part of the fun, so to speak.

I know in my case, the struggles disappeared as I submerged myself into the worship and life of the Church. My biggest issue was the Theotokos. At one point, I consciously decided to put my issues aside, pray about them, and return to them later. Several months later, when I returned to it, I found that my concerns had simply evaporated, and had been replaced by a quiet devotion to the Panagia. Kind of odd to say, but it really was my experience.

But in any event, the one thing I would not do is enter the Church if you were not prepared to submit to her teachings.

James

 

[Orthosdoxa]

I'm with James. You can't claim to be part of the organic union with the community founded at Pentecost at 33 AD, if you go off on your own and reinvent certain doctrines to be more to your liking. However, the things which troubled you most at the beginning of your search might come to be some of the things you hold most dearly later. For example, I was shocked to find that the Orthodox didn't believe in inherited guilt, when I first discovered it two or three years ago - but the more I read the Scriptures and the early Fathers, the more the Orthodox view began to make the most sense to me. Same with the view on the Theotokos. (and I never bought into predestination anyway) Keep reading and praying and asking questions. We are all just laypeople here, but we do our best. There are lots of good articles on my web page at stienekel.tripod.com - I like to refer people to it, because most of these articles are for people who are searching and have questions.

Welcome to TAW!

Katherine

 

[Eusebios]

What dogmas are "binding", so to speak, on Orthodox believers? I am not Orthodox, but to my knowledge I am in full agreement with the Seven Councils. I have some peculiar beliefs and I am wondering if they would necessarily exclude me from the ranks of Orthodoxy.

-Tendency to view original sin as inherited guilt
-"Augustinian" view of predestination
-Uncertainty over Mary's perpetual virginity

So... do any of you know of Orthodox Christians who hold to a more "Western" understanding of salvation (i.e. Augustinian/Thomist) or who struggle with Marian issues?

Thanks!

FFH,
Hello and welcome to TAW
In full agreement with James, I too see two things on your list that are somewhat outside the "norm" of Orthodox belief. Orthodox view ourselves as carrying the stain, or residual effect of original sin, rather than the original guilt, as well as having a definite view on the ever virginity of The Theotokos.
Having said these things, I too will add that not unlike yourself and James, I had reservations about the ever virginity of mAry. And like him, as I merely set aside my preoccupation with my concerns and steeped in the services of the Church, not only did my reservations fade away, but they were replaced with a firm belief and understanding.
If you haven't done so already, I highly recommend a visit to a local Orthodox parish for either a Saturday Great Vespers or Sunday Divine Liturgy. Please also feel free to continue to drop in and ask questions at TAW.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:

 

[FlipFlopHead]

What about the western saints who taught such doctrines, especially predestination? At the time St. Augustine was a part of the Orthodox Church, even though he was a Latin. Why does Orthodoxy tend to accept only eastern patristic tradition??

Any help you can give me with this is much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Hello FlipFlopHead,
I think anybody here who is a convert would agree that becoming Orthodox requires a dramatic "paradigm shift."

I don't know if you are interested in becoming Orthodox, but if you are:

The most important thing is to accept that Christ founded One Church, and that Church is the Orthodox Church. After accepting that, the rest kind of falls into place.

Sometimes the round pegs of Orthodox Doctrine and Dogma don't fit well in the square holes of our understanding, but as you immerse yourself in Worship and Prayer, understanding of Orthodoxy will naturally follow. (Not necessarily intellectual understanding, but definitely intuitive understanding).

Also, there are many wonderful Saints from the West who have taught the Orthodox view of Salvation. There are also Eastern Bishops who taught terrible heresies. The Orthodox view of Salvation is not Eastern, but Universal. Unfortunately, the Westerners you mentioned did not Preach Orthodoxy, and that is why there doctrines must be rejected, and not just because they are Western.

Hope this helps
Moses

 

[nikephoros_spatharios]

What about the western saints who taught such doctrines, especially predestination? At the time St. Augustine was a part of the Orthodox Church, even though he was a Latin. Why does Orthodoxy tend to accept only eastern patristic tradition??

Any help you can give me with this is much appreciated. Thanks.

St. Augustine is a saint of the Orthodox Church as well. But Truth does not lie in the fallible sayings of any single man, but in the consensus of the Church throughout the ages.

So, while St. Augustine is honored as a saint, the Orthodox Church does not accept his teachings when they contradict the consensus. Also, St. Augustine was virtually unknown in the eastern part of the Roman world until the middle of the 2nd millennium almost, which is why his ideas and thoughts are not prominent in Orthodox theology.

 

[katherine2001]

There is no Church Father that is infallible. Every Church Father has teachings that are not accepted by the Church. St. Augustine's teachings on Original Sin are not accepted by the Orthodox Church.

 

[Rilian]

So... do any of you know of Orthodox Christians who hold to a more "Western" understanding of salvation (i.e. Augustinian/Thomist) or who struggle with Marian issues?

Thanks!

I think it’s certainly plausible to say at the individual level there may be variance in terms of the mechanics of salvation. Personally speaking, as someone who is investigating Orthodoxy, it was western sotierology that was one of the things that really began to trouble me. I think one of the best summaries of the Orthodox view of salvation is this essay which someone on this board pointed me to, Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife.

Augustine, as was already pointed out, was part of the linguistic divide that probably in many ways spurred on the schism. I will say I think he gets a bad rap in large part not for what he said, but what others made of his writing. You won’t see much about Jerome either in the East. I think Aquinas and the scholastic tradition of the west would be more problematic for Orthodoxy. Theology became highly speculative in scholasticism and tended to play a lot of “mind of God” games which I think predestination fits into. I think this tendency shows itself both in Protestant and Catholic thought. Orthodoxy in general puts much more emphasis on mystery in assessing the workings of God, it has a tendency in my opinion to leave well enough alone if you will. Orthodoxy in general also tends to be highly suspicious of determinism in any form from what I can tell.

The perpetual virginity was a tough one for me, but I feel I’m pretty well past that bridge. It was actually quite interesting for me to find not only was this doctrine nearly universal in the early church, it was also accepted by Luther and Calvin. There’s a pretty good essay written by Fr. Peter Gillquist called Facing Up to Mary.

Best luck in your search.