Mandalas

[Ripheus27]

On the off-chance you've never seen one:

How does this imagery (however approximate to the appearance of the mystical state) naturally evoke transcendence? Or: supposing that mystical states are not supernatural, what is their natural explanation? Yet I am proposing a justification as well, here. I'm making something of a normative claim. And I am only applying it to a single case, that of mandala trances. The broader religious questions this raises will have to be left aside for the sake of this discussion--that there is a meditative (in Dante called "contemplative") tradition even in orthodox Christianity is overwhelmingly plausible, and for all it matters to me, mandalas might be indexed more to spirituality as it developed in the East and yet obliquely pertain to the Triune God (in a constructive way).

So, consider this:

This is an adaption of the traditional Square of Opposition from Aristotelian logic to the modal-type relations of deontic logic, an image even of what moral reality "looks like." (I mean this remark at least for those who balance their transcendental ideation between Plato and Immanuel Kant.) At least, even if it is only the geometry of a subjective structure, it still can be apprehended as austere in glory, a prototype for a mandala, as it were.

For http://alessiomoretti.perso.sfr.fr/DeonticDodecagonAndNOT.pdf involves logicians claiming that logic in itself can be conceived of in terms of these ever-unfolding geometrical progressions. That is, from a 2D vortex to a 3D crystal--an analogue for crystal, that is, on the "plane of existence" of transcendental moral idealism.

To really push this storyline: there is no reason to suppose in advance that structures could not be drawn up as complex as our physical forms are, but on the space of the ethical plane instead. That is maybe the kind of thing that a mystic might claim. But it would be a neat way to explain mystics' widespread reports of "perceiving" reality in terms of some kind of life transcending death (no religion as yet fully gauging the meaning of what has been "perceived"). That is, they adopt a Kantian faith in the power of virtue and grace, and trace eternal life as translation beyond every sky.

This is admittedly only a semi-naturalistic account of mandala/geometric trances. It depends on a partly empyrean conception of ethicality, granted. Or is the second condition aesthetic? If there were a fully naturalistic explanation for the aesthetic appeal of regular polytopes, maybe some more naturalistic grounding could be given to my conclusion in this thread.

EDIT: ADDENDUM

Though unproven, maybe even disconfirmed, at one point physicist Garrett Lisi suggested that the fundamental structure of physical reality might somehow correspond in hundreds of dimensions to the following image:

His suggestion was not taken by the physics research community as formally invalid.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How does this imagery (however approximate to the appearance of the mystical state) naturally evoke transcendence?

Does it naturally evoke transcendence better than other images? I don't know that that is true.

Anyway, all you are showing are drawings that are suggestive of interconnections. Since some spiritual experiences are about experiencing the universe as interconnected, it's possible that some aspect of brain function responds to that implication in art. I don't see why there needs to be any grander explanation than that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ripheus27]

Does it naturally evoke transcendence better than other images? I don't know that that is true.

I know there are other images that serve just as well, if not better, for the purpose. It just is a little strange to me to see transcendence in a mandala at all, kinda like the question, "How does pure instrumental music evoke emotion when it has no discernible semantic content that could reflect descriptions of emotional information as we understand it?"

Anyway, all you are showing are drawings that are suggestive of interconnections. Since some spiritual experiences are about experiencing the universe as interconnected, it's possible that some aspect of brain function responds to that implication in art. I don't see why there needs to be any grander explanation than that.

I was thinking that maybe people have a Jungian kind of archetypal knowledge of the abstract relations of deontic logic, so that subconsciously (or in the collective unconscious or whatever) an image like the second one in the OP might be encoded into ourselves and meditation can trigger a more self-aware possession of an image with this deontic meaning. Then, to facilitate meditation in the future, similar structures might be drawn by those who have "seen" the deontic octodecagon--mandala artists wouldn't exactly know what the original looked like, since we're talking about a burst of intellectual intuition as it were in the act of "seeing" the original. Moreover, they might not even know the content of what they "see," except that it radiates an aura of overwhelming value (the priority of normative truth, though they don't realize it, or if they do they usually transcribe their realization in greatly dogmatic religious language).

There's this chapter/subsection of Douglas Hofstadter's GEB where he discusses how this one mathematical savant, Srinivasa Ramanujan, was able to spontaneously lapse into a state where he integrated so many units of his mathematical reasoning in a single intellectual act that he sometimes clearly perceived mathematical facts of a relatively high level without the need to run through the derivation for the facts step-by-step. Now if the relationship between mathematics and formal logic holds for deontic logic as well, then there might be people who are "deontic savants," you might call them that (my linguistic intuition is telling me there's a better phrase you could come up with, but I'll set the problem aside)--and these people would be able to "chunk" (Hofstadter's word, I think) their judgments on the mathematical structure of normative truth, spontaneously achieving insights of a high caliber that might otherwise seem mystical contact with a supernatural entity. (Some suspected Ramanujan of almost spiritual powers. Worse yet, did you know there was a time when knowing how to use the number zero was regarded as potentially satanic magic (Ronald Green, Nothing Matters: A Book about Nothing)? And you know how some people act like the Holy Spirit is the only way for a person to do the right thing, that there are no "virtuous pagans" as it were. But I imagine you know a lot about the notion of being eudaimon, the origin of the word. Consider how Greek philosophy's Logos was integrated into the story of Christ. What if eudaimonia was appropriated as well? For a literal translation of the word is good spirit.)

 

[Eudaimonist]

I was thinking that maybe people have a Jungian kind of archetypal knowledge of the abstract relations of deontic logic

This strikes me as far-fetched. To my mind, the simpler explanations are more likely to be correct.

But I imagine you know a lot about the notion of being eudaimon, the origin of the word.

Yes, a fair amount.

Consider how Greek philosophy's Logos was integrated into the story of Christ. What if eudaimonia was appropriated as well? For a literal translation of the word is good spirit.

Yes, that is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if this had been done to appeal to Hellenistic people. If you as a Christian tell them that your God provides a good daimon (or Roman genius) in the form of the Holy Spirit, that may have been a good sales pitch.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[apache1]

On the off-chance you've never seen one:

How does this imagery (however approximate to the appearance of the mystical state) naturally evoke transcendence? Or: supposing that mystical states are not supernatural, what is their natural explanation? Yet I am proposing a justification as well, here. I'm making something of a normative claim. And I am only applying it to a single case, that of mandala trances. The broader religious questions this raises will have to be left aside for the sake of this discussion--that there is a meditative (in Dante called "contemplative") tradition even in orthodox Christianity is overwhelmingly plausible, and for all it matters to me, mandalas might be indexed more to spirituality as it developed in the East and yet obliquely pertain to the Triune God (in a constructive way).

So, consider this:

This is an adaption of the traditional Square of Opposition from Aristotelian logic to the modal-type relations of deontic logic, an image even of what moral reality "looks like." (I mean this remark at least for those who balance their transcendental ideation between Plato and Immanuel Kant.) At least, even if it is only the geometry of a subjective structure, it still can be apprehended as austere in glory, a prototype for a mandala, as it were.

For http://alessiomoretti.perso.sfr.fr/DeonticDodecagonAndNOT.pdf involves logicians claiming that logic in itself can be conceived of in terms of these ever-unfolding geometrical progressions. That is, from a 2D vortex to a 3D crystal--an analogue for crystal, that is, on the "plane of existence" of transcendental moral idealism.

To really push this storyline: there is no reason to suppose in advance that structures could not be drawn up as complex as our physical forms are, but on the space of the ethical plane instead. That is maybe the kind of thing that a mystic might claim. But it would be a neat way to explain mystics' widespread reports of "perceiving" reality in terms of some kind of life transcending death (no religion as yet fully gauging the meaning of what has been "perceived"). That is, they adopt a Kantian faith in the power of virtue and grace, and trace eternal life as translation beyond every sky.

This is admittedly only a semi-naturalistic account of mandala/geometric trances. It depends on a partly empyrean conception of ethicality, granted. Or is the second condition aesthetic? If there were a fully naturalistic explanation for the aesthetic appeal of regular polytopes, maybe some more naturalistic grounding could be given to my conclusion in this thread.

EDIT: ADDENDUM

Though unproven, maybe even disconfirmed, at one point physicist Garrett Lisi suggested that the fundamental structure of physical reality might somehow correspond in hundreds of dimensions to the following image:

His suggestion was not taken by the physics research community as formally invalid.

" 'Scuse me while I kiss the sky!" (guitar riff, guitar riff...Purple haze...)

 

[apache1]

On the off-chance you've never seen one:

How does this imagery (however approximate to the appearance of the mystical state) naturally evoke transcendence? Or: supposing that mystical states are not supernatural, what is their natural explanation? Yet I am proposing a justification as well, here. I'm making something of a normative claim. And I am only applying it to a single case, that of mandala trances. The broader religious questions this raises will have to be left aside for the sake of this discussion--that there is a meditative (in Dante called "contemplative") tradition even in orthodox Christianity is overwhelmingly plausible, and for all it matters to me, mandalas might be indexed more to spirituality as it developed in the East and yet obliquely pertain to the Triune God (in a constructive way).

So, consider this:

This is an adaption of the traditional Square of Opposition from Aristotelian logic to the modal-type relations of deontic logic, an image even of what moral reality "looks like." (I mean this remark at least for those who balance their transcendental ideation between Plato and Immanuel Kant.) At least, even if it is only the geometry of a subjective structure, it still can be apprehended as austere in glory, a prototype for a mandala, as it were.

For http://alessiomoretti.perso.sfr.fr/DeonticDodecagonAndNOT.pdf involves logicians claiming that logic in itself can be conceived of in terms of these ever-unfolding geometrical progressions. That is, from a 2D vortex to a 3D crystal--an analogue for crystal, that is, on the "plane of existence" of transcendental moral idealism.

To really push this storyline: there is no reason to suppose in advance that structures could not be drawn up as complex as our physical forms are, but on the space of the ethical plane instead. That is maybe the kind of thing that a mystic might claim. But it would be a neat way to explain mystics' widespread reports of "perceiving" reality in terms of some kind of life transcending death (no religion as yet fully gauging the meaning of what has been "perceived"). That is, they adopt a Kantian faith in the power of virtue and grace, and trace eternal life as translation beyond every sky.

This is admittedly only a semi-naturalistic account of mandala/geometric trances. It depends on a partly empyrean conception of ethicality, granted. Or is the second condition aesthetic? If there were a fully naturalistic explanation for the aesthetic appeal of regular polytopes, maybe some more naturalistic grounding could be given to my conclusion in this thread.

EDIT: ADDENDUM

Though unproven, maybe even disconfirmed, at one point physicist Garrett Lisi suggested that the fundamental structure of physical reality might somehow correspond in hundreds of dimensions to the following image:

His suggestion was not taken by the physics research community as formally invalid.

No offense, but I have no idea what the holy hell you are talking about or getting at. When I hear of a mandala, I either think of Nelson Mandela or the Rod Stewart song "Maggie May" where in thel last part a "mandolin" is being played. Anyway, this "mandala" looks to me like a glorified Native American Dreamcatcher.

 

[Ripheus27]

The first image is a picture I found on Google Images when I searched for "mandala." The second picture is a logical diagram of relations in the logic of obligations. The last is somehow related to some physicist's unique theory about subatomic reality (or so it seems to me).

Now my question about why mandalas evoke transcendent states is like the question about how pure instrumental music evokes the emotions that it does. Do some people just weirdly think mandala-like designs are meaningful beyond the ordinary plane of existence, or is there some subconscious process in some mystics' minds whereby they intuitively diagram abstract moral truths in terms of images that resemble the mystical designs and, not fully visualizing any of this clearly, they imperfectly copy the imagined pattern when they draw representations of it for use in later attempts at meditation as basically a "recall" assist?

 

[apache1]

The first image is a picture I found on Google Images when I searched for "mandala." The second picture is a logical diagram of relations in the logic of obligations. The last is somehow related to some physicist's unique theory about subatomic reality (or so it seems to me).

Now my question about why mandalas evoke transcendent states is like the question about how pure instrumental music evokes the emotions that it does. Do some people just weirdly think mandala-like designs are meaningful beyond the ordinary plane of existence, or is there some subconscious process in some mystics' minds whereby they intuitively diagram abstract moral truths in terms of images that resemble the mystical designs and, not fully visualizing any of this clearly, they imperfectly copy the imagined pattern when they draw representations of it for use in later attempts at meditation as basically a "recall" assist?

I'm just gonna assume your mental faculties are on a higher plane than mine, at least when it comes to things of this nature, and you are clearly out of my league, I still don't understand. Well, anyway, you have a great evening and you seem to clearly enjoy this sort of thing, so who am I to disagree or rain on your parade? Peace - Apache

 

[Gottservant]

I think the reality we know is a reflection of mathematical constants that we hold in our head, constants that look like mandala. These constants serve to actualize our consciousness to certain kinds of probability, which then become the future we interact with. We are able to interact with them (those futures) primarily because these mandala like constants have prepared our consciousness to interact with something, that the future that occurs fits with. In this way, the mandalas become irrelevant even as they are utilized to manifest that which we truly value.

I'm saying there is definitely a secondary value to them, but unfortunately, anything secondary is forgotten.

Worshipping them, only serves to heighten the fact that they pass away to more significant values.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Now my question about why mandalas evoke transcendent states is like the question about how pure instrumental music evokes the emotions that it does.

"...While music can often seem (at least to the outsider) like a labyrinth of intricate patterns – it’s art at its most mathematical – it turns out that the most important part of every song or symphony is when the patterns break down, when the sound becomes unpredictable..."

The Neuroscience Of Music | Wired Science | Wired.com


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Redac]

That first photo looks like the kind of thing people look at or see after dropping acid.

 

[Ripheus27]

That first photo looks like the kind of thing people look at or see after dropping acid.

I have a related conjecture (hypothesis, if nothing better) about recurring images reported by users of certain drugs, and the context of the imagery is supposed to be some ultimately transcendent state. Without conceding the parallel objectivity (or even objective superiority) asserted for these visions of a transcendent world vs. vision in the physical world, is there a way to account for them by what is, if not completely naturalistic, still one of the most limited non-naturalistic accounts of aspects of reality as we know it?

The Neuroscience Of Music | Wired Science | Wired.com

I can see that the article shows what physical process constitutes the event of emotional response to music, but it seems to talk some philosophy where it goes:

The uncertainty makes the feeling – it is what triggers that surge of dopamine in the caudate, as we struggle to figure out what will happen next. And so our neurons search for the undulating order, trying to make sense of this flurry of pitches. We can predict some of the notes, but we can’t predict them all, and that is what keeps us listening, waiting expectantly for our reward, for the errant pattern to be completed. Music is a form whose meaning depends upon its violation.​

This says a lot about musical euphoria, but what about the dolor, the anger, or the happy-go-lucky way of a lot of other songs? What is it about some musical patterns that naturally invokes all these different emotions? (Maybe there's an inference from what the article does report to the difference in cases, though, and I've just missed it.)

One's answer to this question depends on one's theory of meaning, and I'm not sure which theories there are (for this is held by some to be a partly normative subject, which I rather agree with) that have been vetted so much by science. But at any rate, the analogy between the questions of music and those of geometrical patterns recurring across a variety of mystical traditions doesn't have to be that strong for the one set to serve as a sort of introductory example to the other.

 

[Ripheus27]

This is the scenario I'm imagining. Some ascetic out in some wilderness sits down to meditate. She clears her mind of chaos as well as she can, and tries to focus on the depths of her existence. Moral concepts naturally convey a sense of unique value, meaning, etc. (perhaps not for everyone, though), so deep in her trance, this person apprehends those concepts in some imaginary form as radiating transcendent grace and glory. Now the objective geometry, essentially, of some of these moral concepts is a structure that potentially looks like a mandala. So in seeing this mandala-like image of moral power, this person might think she's having a "vision of God" or whatever. Upon coming out of the trance, she would seek to articulate her "vision," either for memorial or as a recall aid in future attempts at returning to the mandala state. So she might do her best at drawing what she saw, but since all of it involved this ethereal vision, maybe she doesn't get the number of angles right in the overall design or something.

 

[apache1]

That first photo looks like the kind of thing people look at or see after dropping acid.

Exactly. Like I said "Scuse me, while I kiss the sky". Kinda reminds me of the posters I used to buy years ago at Spencer Gifts...very psychadelic, baby!

 

[apache1]

That first photo looks like the kind of thing people look at or see after dropping acid.

Using"The Condition My Condition Was In", by Kenny Rogers and the New Edition, as backup music one could make a music video of that song using one of them there mandalas shimmering in and out like a kaleidoscope, watching that for a few minutes would be funkier than any acid or shrooms out there (8 miles from Memphis....oh no, here comes the motion sickness...barfff).

 

[apache1]

That first photo looks like the kind of thing people look at or see after dropping acid.

A not Tom Petty version. Running down Mandala, ain't a Nelson or Winnie. Ain't stuck in history, the future uncertainity, trippin' on a mandala. (that Tom Petty music could, instead of stoned-out looking MTV video of King in Alice in Wonderland, could be funky living Mandala in Wonderland).

 

[Paradoxum]

It's very beautiful, and sort looks like how one could picture God.

 

[apache1]

It's very beautiful, and sort looks like how one could picture God.

It doesn't look what I would picture God as looking like, but sure looks better than George Burns! (sorry, RIP George).

 

[Ripheus27]

It's very beautiful, and sort looks like how one could picture God.

I actually thought something like, "Looking into an eye that looked like that, would kinda be like looking into the eye of God. Imagine that eye and a voice like a nova announcing Itself upon the Earth."

 

[Eudaimonist]

This says a lot about musical euphoria, but what about the dolor, the anger, or the happy-go-lucky way of a lot of other songs?

A subject for future research, I imagine.

Still, what struck me is that it isn't a consistent, predictable pattern, but the breaking of a predictable pattern, that creates the euphoria. I find that difficult to reconcile with a "mandala" view of transcendence, in which the pattern is stable and predictable.


eudaimonia,

Mark