Making a toast...

[Carl Emerson]

I just attended a funeral of a dear saint who passed on to the next life.

It was sensitively done - the extended family were honouring her faith in Jesus which it seemed they did not walk in themselves.

They asked me to speak a blessing which I had prepared, it was pretty touching.

Then when the informal service was over we moved on to food and drinks.

At that point we were all invited to make a toast with champagne to mark her passing - it was like a 'secular priesthood' had kicked in and the 'god of alcohol' had to be heard.

One could say that they were just doing all they knew to do and it was no big deal.

But in the context of a country ravaged by alcoholism I was not fully comfortable with it.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Dave L]

I just attended a funeral of a dear saint who passed on to the next life.

It was sensitively done - the extended family were honouring her faith in Jesus which it seemed they did not walk in themselves.

They asked me to speak a blessing which I had prepared, it was pretty touching.

Then when the informal service was over we moved on to food and drinks.

At that point we were all invited to make a toast with champagne to mark her passing - it was like a 'secular priesthood' had kicked in and the 'god of alcohol' had to be heard.

One could say that they were just doing all they knew to do and it was no big deal.

But in the context of a country ravaged by alcoholism I was not fully comfortable with it.

Any thoughts on this?

Jesus turned water into wine. Teetotalers turn wine into grape juice.

 

[JohnDB]

I just attended a funeral of a dear saint who passed on to the next life.

It was sensitively done - the extended family were honouring her faith in Jesus which it seemed they did not walk in themselves.

They asked me to speak a blessing which I had prepared, it was pretty touching.

Then when the informal service was over we moved on to food and drinks.

At that point we were all invited to make a toast with champagne to mark her passing - it was like a 'secular priesthood' had kicked in and the 'god of alcohol' had to be heard.

One could say that they were just doing all they knew to do and it was no big deal.

But in the context of a country ravaged by alcoholism I was not fully comfortable with it.

Any thoughts on this?

Celebration with sparkling wine?
I understand that alcoholism is rampant...but the practice of a drink is symbolic of the joy the dead person now has in Heaven as well as celebrating the life of joy they led while with us.

I understand your concerns...but a small amount of sparkling wine is not a bad thing...a drunken party where lots of hard liquor flows freely is unacceptable. (Irish wake)

Just an opinion.

 

[bèlla]

My condolences for your loss.

Addictions take root for reasons well beyond the obvious. Having a drink won't make anyone an alcoholic who doesn't seek escape in their consumption. That's where the problem begins.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

I should have explained that for me it is not to do with whether to have a glass of wine - I am fine with that - it seemed to be more the participation in a secular ceremony.

 

[Dave L]

My condolences for your loss.

Addictions take root for reasons well beyond the obvious. Having a drink won't make anyone an alcoholic who doesn't seek escape in their consumption. That's where the problem begins.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

If God really heals, former drunks are no longer bound. And can drink without ill effects. What they do is replace one addiction with another. Many times religion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I should have explained that for me it is not to do with whether to have a glass of wine - I am fine with that - it seemed to be more the participation in a secular ceremony.

I am seeing the lives of those who participated ruined by alcohol...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Psalm 104:15
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

 

[dzheremi]

I should have explained that for me it is not to do with whether to have a glass of wine - I am fine with that - it seemed to be more the participation in a secular ceremony.

First, my condolences, Carl.

On the 'secular ceremony' aspect, it seems that they were going to have that anyway, since as you say they were doing what they knew to do. You were given the chance to give a blessing in accordance with your faith and (presumably) the faith of the departed, which is a blessing itself. I'd focus on that instead of what others were doing, since you have no control over that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

First, my condolences, Carl.

On the 'secular ceremony' aspect, it seems that they were going to have that anyway, since as you say they were doing what they knew to do. You were given the chance to give a blessing in accordance with your faith and (presumably) the faith of the departed, which is a blessing itself. I'd focus on that instead of what others were doing, since you have no control over that.

Right - however the issue that remains is should I have participated in the toast?

 

[Dave L]

Right - however the issue that remains is should I have participated in the toast?

It is sin if it bothers your conscience, even if it isn't a sin for others.

 

[dzheremi]

Right - however the issue that remains is should I have participated in the toast?

I don't see why not. Did it invoke some foreign god or religion? I assume that the 'god of alcohol' was metaphorical.

Alcoholism is of course a good thing to keep in mind whenever you partake (I come from a family of alcoholics on my mother's side, so I know that I need to be careful with it, as well), but if you are sober-minded you will already have that in mind, whether you personally partake or not. And it seems like you are, so I don't see the harm. Now if it bothers you personally, that's something else, and sure, you don't need to participate in anything you don't feel comfortable with. The toast is surely at least meant to be about remembering the person, not getting loaded or whatever, and you don't need alcohol to remember anyone. It's a matter of social custom, at best, and there are plenty who don't drink. I've refused to go to the bar with people from church before just because I don't usually like the atmosphere in bars. If it's not a matter of communion, it's not something I'm going to let bother me one way or another, but that's my personal line. Everyone must draw their own, informed by their own faith and how they mean to live it.

 

[JohnDB]

I am seeing the lives of those who participated ruined by alcohol...

OK...
But that doesn't mean that the life they were celebrating was destroyed by alcohol. Nor does it mean that their participation in it is going to further destroy their lives because of their poor choices.
Your legalism is going to further separate you from them...and instead of filling in the gap of whom was lost, your attitude is going to further the gap created by your intolerance of alcoholic beverages.

Sure you care about these people...but that message is going to get lost in your intolerance. There's miles of difference between tolerance and acceptance.

Granted drunken behavior is unacceptable and intolerable. But that doesn't mean that you can't accept someone who has engaged in the behavior. You have to tolerate that behavior in someone but not accept it. It might seem like splitting hairs...but it really isn't.

 

[NBB]

Remember that Jesus drank wine with publicans and sinners.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Your legalism is going to further separate you from them...and instead of filling in the gap of whom was lost, your attitude is going to further the gap created by your intolerance of alcoholic beverages.

Really... did you not read that I partook with them?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some folks are not carefully reading the thread.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't see why not. Did it invoke some foreign god or religion? I assume that the 'god of alcohol' was metaphorical.

Alcoholism is of course a good thing to keep in mind whenever you partake (I come from a family of alcoholics on my mother's side, so I know that I need to be careful with it, as well), but if you are sober-minded you will already have that in mind, whether you personally partake or not. And it seems like you are, so I don't see the harm. Now if it bothers you personally, that's something else, and sure, you don't need to participate in anything you don't feel comfortable with. The toast is surely at least meant to be about remembering the person, not getting loaded or whatever, and you don't need alcohol to remember anyone. It's a matter of social custom, at best, and there are plenty who don't drink. I've refused to go to the bar with people from church before just because I don't usually like the atmosphere in bars. If it's not a matter of communion, it's not something I'm going to let bother me one way or another, but that's my personal line. Everyone must draw their own, informed by their own faith and how they mean to live it.

OK I think we have a similar take on things...

In the North of NZ the alcohol abuse is chronic so I don't drink with them up there.

Further South not so bad so a glass or two is not so much of an issue.

At the end of the day what seems right before God in the circumstance is the best plan.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Bob Crowley]

If you're not a teetotaller yourself, it would have been a double standard not to take part in a toast, even if rampant alcoholism is an issue in NZ (which surprised me - I thought it would be similar to Australia. We obviously have alcoholics too, along with drug addicts and all the rest, but I wouldn't have thought it would be worse. We certainly don't hear about it).

Otherwise you'd be saying it's OK to drink champagne at home, but not in public, not even in a toast. Either way alcohol is being consumed (I drink myself incidentally, usually a glass of wine at home or a light beer if I'm out).

If you'd stuck around and gotten plastered, that would have been un-Christian behaviour, but I don't think that happened.

As someone else wrote, Christ drank wine, even though there would have been some alcoholics in ancient Jewish society (but probably far fewer than in modern NZ, or Australia for that matter).