Magical thinking or delusional thinking?

StormyOne · Jun 29, 2010

A friend shared this with me:

"Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view." -- Leon Festinger

I have worked in the mental health field for over 20 yrs... I have seen this in many people over the years... it is called a delusional system of thought...

Unfortunately, I have also seen this type of thinking in christians.... when I read the description above the first example that came to mind was the historic event Adventists call "The Great Disappointment."

What do you think?

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 30, 2010

StormyOne said:
A friend shared this with me:

I have worked in the mental health field for over 20 yrs... I have seen this in many people over the years... it is called a delusional system of thought...

Unfortunately, I have also seen this type of thinking in christians.... when I read the description above the first example that came to mind was the historic event Adventists call "The Great Disappointment."

What do you think?

Wow! Very insightful post. I'd bet we agree that this happens in many places.

Because I was SDA for several decades, I am most prone to understanding this in light of my experience. Based on the things I've seen and experienced, I would guess that most SDAs come to a point in their life where they consider the possibility that their world view includes certain misinformation. Not all SDAs respond to this crossroads in the same way. If we were to better understand what is happening when two persons have a heated disagreement in this forum, we may find that their disagreement is fueled by the fact that they responded very differently to their crossroads moments.

Great thread!

BFA

Restin · Jun 30, 2010

StormyOne said:
A friend shared this with me:

"Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? ..."

-- Leon Festinger

Click to expand...

What will happen? One will....

...do what Eve did when she ate the forbidden fruit
...do what Pilate did in order to be politically correct
...do what Peter in denying his Lord in the Judgment hall
...do what Judas did, when his plans did not work out...

Restin

Sophia7 · Jun 30, 2010

StormyOne said:
A friend shared this with me:

I have worked in the mental health field for over 20 yrs... I have seen this in many people over the years... it is called a delusional system of thought...

Unfortunately, I have also seen this type of thinking in christians.... when I read the description above the first example that came to mind was the historic event Adventists call "The Great Disappointment."

What do you think?

The Great Disappointment is a good example of that. The Adventist pioneers were unwilling ever to consider the possibility that they were mistaken about the meaning of that experience.

I hope that I never reach a point where I am unwilling to rethink my views in light of evidence that I am wrong about something.

Joe67 · Jul 1, 2010

Sophia7 said:
The Great Disappointment is a good example of that. The Adventist pioneers were unwilling ever to consider the possibility that they were mistaken about the meaning of that experience.

I hope that I never reach a point where I am unwilling to rethink my views in light of evidence that I am wrong about something.

Sophia,

You know that the witness of one pioneer is "that just because something is believed for a long period of time, that does not make it true." Let us not join a multitude to curse our spiritual parents whereby the Father brought us to his Son, even though our cord was not cut.

Now he has called us to leave the place of our spiritual nativity, but let us not curse our parents or the place where we were birthed, even though it be an open field. Ezekiel 16. Our father was a Amorite and our mother was a Hittite.

Joe

Byfaithalone1 · Jul 1, 2010

Joe67 said:
Sophia,

You know that the witness of one pioneer is "that just because something is believed for a long period of time, that does not make it true." Let us not join a multitude to curse our spiritual parents whereby the Father brought us to his Son, even though our cord was not cut.

Now he has called us to leave the place of our spiritual nativity, but let us not curse our parents or the place where we were birthed, even though it be an open field. Ezekiel 16. Our father was a Amorite and our mother was a Hittite.

Joe

I don't know much about Sophia's experience, but I'm not sure that SDAs were her childhood mentors. Sophia, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

SDAs were my childhood mentors. I agree that I should not curse them and I don't believe that I have. I love, admire and respect them on many levels. Meanwhile, I disagree with them on various points of doctrine. I know former Catholics who find themself in a similar position. It is not a position of disrespect; it is a position of disagreement.

BFA

AzA · Jul 1, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
It is not a position of disrespect; it is a position of disagreement.

Well said. But when people standing on the sidelines don't know the difference between the two, we all run into trouble.

One of the things about growing up is learning to improve on one's parents model. It can always be improved and that fact does not make one's parents evil. Bless them and keep building.

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2010

Joe67 said:
Sophia,

You know that the witness of one pioneer is "that just because something is believed for a long period of time, that does not make it true." Let us not join a multitude to curse our spiritual parents whereby the Father brought us to his Son, even though our cord was not cut.

Now he has called us to leave the place of our spiritual nativity, but let us not curse our parents or the place where we were birthed, even though it be an open field. Ezekiel 16. Our father was a Amorite and our mother was a Hittite.

Joe

What I am referring to specifically is the attitude exhibited in these paragraphs:

Let Pioneers Identify Truth.--When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No aftersuppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time, God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. {CW 31.2}

A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time. {CW 32.1}

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.-- Preach the Word, p. 5. (1905.) {CW 32.2}

I am not cursing the Adventist pioneers, but I disagree with them. I believe that they were in error when they clung so dogmatically to their experience as the litmus test of truth that they refused even to listen to any evidence contrary to their beliefs.

AzA · Jul 1, 2010

StormyOne said:
"Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view." -- Leon Festinger

I've seen this in effect in lots of forums, and not just conservative ones, so let's be careful about limiting it to a particular religious or political group. Liberals often have just as many prior commitments as conservatives do.

The question is whether one chooses to stay open or not. An open person will change, even if they also grow into deeper understanding and respect for whatever traditions their community might conserve. But they will not stall.

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
I don't know much about Sophia's experience, but I'm not sure that SDAs were her childhood mentors. Sophia, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

SDAs were my childhood mentors. I agree that I should not curse them and I don't believe that I have. I love, admire and respect them on many levels. Meanwhile, I disagree with them on various points of doctrine. I know former Catholics who find themself in a similar position. It is not a position of disrespect; it is a position of disagreement.

BFA

I was raised in Adventism, but my spiritual influences were not exclusively Adventist. I had some SDA mentors and some non-SDA mentors. All of them played important roles in my life, even those with whom I now disagree on doctrine. Disagreement is not cursing.

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2010

AzA said:
I've seen this in effect in lots of forums, and not just conservative ones, so let's be careful about limiting it to a particular religious or political group. Liberals often have just as many prior commitments as conservatives do.

The question is whether one chooses to stay open or not. An open person will change, even if they also grow into deeper understanding and respect for whatever traditions their community might conserve. But they will not stall.

Good points.

StormyOne · Jul 1, 2010

AzA said:
I've seen this in effect in lots of forums, and not just conservative ones, so let's be careful about limiting it to a particular religious or political group. Liberals often have just as many prior commitments as conservatives do.

The question is whether one chooses to stay open or not. An open person will change, even if they also grow into deeper understanding and respect for whatever traditions their community might conserve. But they will not stall.

No doubt, there is stagnation both on the left or the right.... and of course the manifestation of that stagnation might look different depending on the issue.... but as you say, the key is to remain "open" as far as possible....

Byfaithalone1 · Jul 1, 2010

One of the things about growing up is learning to improve on one's parents model. It can always be improved and that fact does not make one's parents evil. Bless them and keep building.

I agree wholeheartedly, and this is where I am today.

In encouraging folks to keep building, we need to give them the freedom to experience the emotions that are a part of that building process. I've noticed that a child (at whatever age) usually reaches a point where he concludes that his mentors had adopted and taught some misinformation. It's pretty common for such a child to experience a variety of emotions as he processes this conclusion. In fact, in cases where the family was more passionately connected to its teachings, the child may experience some rather intense emotions. That child needs our love and understanding as he keeps building. That child needs an opportunity to be specific as he discusses the ideas he is processing. That child needs us to be patient with the time and courage it takes to keep building.

AzA said:
But when people standing on the sidelines don't know the difference between the two, we all run into trouble.

It's a great point and it's important to remember those on the sidelines. We may also need to remember that those on the sidelines may not have had the same experiences and they may not really understand everything that is expressed.

BFA

Joe67 · Jul 1, 2010

Disagreement is necessary.

But when I say that others are "unwilling to change" and that they "dogmatically cling" to their understanding, then that is more than mere disagreement with their actions, but is a judgment upon their actions.

Let us beware lest we judge another man's servants.

I believe that the writer of these words "unwilling to change" and "dogmatically clung" did not write them willingly with conscious malice.

So it is not given to me to judge the writer's intent, but only the outward manifestation lest I be a partaker of the sentiment.

I am not a member of the SdA church today, so there is disagreement concerning doctrines/ideas, but I pray that there is not judgment of the servants intent. They are Christ's servants for good and evil, as with all of us. Romans 11:32.

Joe

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2010

Joe67 said:
Disagreement is necessary.

But when I say that others are "unwilling to change" and that they "dogmatically cling" to their understanding, then that is more than mere disagreement with their actions, but is a judgment upon their actions.

Let us beware lest we judge another man's servants.

I believe that the writer of these words "unwilling to change" and "dogmatically clung" did not write them willingly with conscious malice.

So it is not given to me to judge the writer's intent, but only the outward manifestation lest I be a partaker of the sentiment.

I am not a member of the SdA church today, so there is disagreement concerning doctrines/ideas, but I pray that there is not judgment of the servants intent. They are Christ's servants for good and evil, as with all of us. Romans 11:32.

Joe

Are you not judging my words while at the same time telling me not to judge the words of others? But I do not agree with you on what constitutes "judging" or "cursing." Saying that the Adventist pioneers clung dogmatically to certain ideas is not judging their salvation or their motives, and it is documented in the writings of Ellen White. She instructed people to hold steadfastly to the doctrines that came out of the early Adventist experience and not to listen to anyone who argued against them, even if they quoted Scripture. I don't doubt their sincerity or their conviction, but I disagree with their placing of trust in their experience above all other evidence to determine truth.

Joe67 · Jul 1, 2010

Sophia7 said:
Are you not judging my words while at the same time telling me not to judge the words of others? But I do not agree with you on what constitutes "judging" or "cursing." Saying that the Adventist pioneers clung dogmatically to certain ideas is not judging their salvation or their motives, and it is documented in the writings of Ellen White. She instructed people to hold steadfastly to the doctrines that came out of the early Adventist experience and not to listen to anyone who argued against them, even if they quoted Scripture. I don't doubt their sincerity or their conviction, but I disagree with their placing of trust in their experience above all other evidence to determine truth.

Sophia,

Even Paul encouraged the people to hold fast to what they had learned, even if he or an angel should come and say something different.

I hope you judge the words of my posts for there doctrinal quality. You cannot know "why" or with what "disposition" I wrote the words.

I do not know "why" you wrote what you wrote, nor do I know the "disposition."

Joe

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2010

Joe67 said:
Sophia,

Even Paul encouraged the people to hold fast to what they had learned, even if he or an angel should come and say something different.

Paul did not tell people not to listen to biblical evidence, though. In fact, the Bereans were commended for testing what Paul and Silas were preaching by the Scriptures:

Acts 17:10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.
14 Then immediately the brethren sent Paul out to go as far as the sea; and Silas and Timothy remained there.
15 Now those who escorted Paul brought him as far as Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they left.

Contrast that with the quote by EGW that I cited, telling people not to question the Adventist doctrinal pillars, not even to listen to those who cite scriptural evidence if it contradicts the Adventist experience.

Joe67 said:
I hope you judge the words of my posts for there doctrinal quality. You cannot know "why" or with what "disposition" I wrote the words.

I do not know "why" you wrote what you wrote, nor do I know the "disposition."

Joe

I don't recall saying anything about anyone's motives for writing what they wrote (including yours). However, stating my belief that people were in error regarding something that they wrote or taught (their "doctrinal quality," as you put it) is not judging them or cursing them.

Joe67 · Jul 2, 2010

Sophia7 said:
I don't recall saying anything about anyone's motives for writing what they wrote (including yours). However, stating my belief that people were in error regarding something that they wrote or taught (their "doctrinal quality," as you put it) is not judging them or cursing them.

Sophia,

We are in agreement that measuring the doctrine of others is our necessity.

When we say that someone is "unwilling/not willing", that they have clung "dogmatically" to their own ideas, we have sat in the seat of their soul.

I have felt that way and/or openly stated those measurements toward my wife, my parents, my children, church leaders and neighbors. The Lord has shown me that, when I think within those measurements, I am seating in the seat of judgment that belongs to him and in me is being fulfilled the work of Romans 2:15.

The Lord God speaks to us through 2 modes. First he speaks to us through warnings about the dangers, then he speaks to us of his kindness to restore us from our backsliding.

Luke 7:31-36
31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children. KJV

Joe

Byfaithalone1 · Jul 2, 2010

Let us beware lest we judge another man's servants.

I agree.

So it is not given to me to judge the writer's intent, but only the outward manifestation lest I be a partaker of the sentiment.

It is even possible to misjudge the outward manifestation. I know I've been guilty of this in the past.

I am not a member of the SdA church today, so there is disagreement concerning doctrines/ideas, but I pray that there is not judgment of the servants intent.

I was expressing a similar idea. Mine is not a position of disrespect; it is a position of disagreement.

BFA

Sophia7 · Jul 2, 2010

Joe67 said:
Sophia,

We are in agreement that measuring the doctrine of others is our necessity.

When we say that someone is "unwilling/not willing", that they have clung "dogmatically" to their own ideas, we have sat in the seat of their soul.

I have felt that way and/or openly stated those measurements toward my wife, my parents, my children, church leaders and neighbors. The Lord has shown me that, when I think within those measurements, I am seating in the seat of judgment that belongs to him and in me is being fulfilled the work of Romans 2:15.

The Lord God speaks to us through 2 modes. First he speaks to us through warnings about the dangers, then he speaks to us of his kindness to restore us from our backsliding.

Luke 7:31-36
31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children. KJV

Joe

Joe, I disagree that I am judging anyone's soul by what I wrote. I think that you have judged my words unfairly, but I won't comment on this again lest we further derail Stormy's thread.

Magical thinking or delusional thinking?

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